Community Leadership in Social and Racial Justice, Part One

City of Peachtree Corners, Georgia residents, and leaders speak out about change and actively becoming a more anti-racist community.

This first episode of this mini-part series includes a candidate for Gwinnett Sherriff, and former police officer Keybo Taylor; Director of Redemptive Unity at Periment Church, Jimmy Kim, and teacher and community leader Julie Morgan. Join them along with Peachtree Corners Life podcast host Rico Figliolini and series co-host Karl Barham in this intensive discussion to try and solve these issues.

Timestamp:

[00:00:30] – Intro
[00:05:54] – Feelings on These Issues
[00:20:13] – Personal Experiences with Injustice 
[00:32:34] – Participating in the Community
[00:42:42] – Leaning on our Leaders
[00:45:36] – Bringing New Voices to the Table
[00:52:25] – Desires for Change
[01:08:28] – Closing

Related Links:

Keybo Taylor: ​https://keyboforsheriff.com
Jimmy Kim and Perimeter Church: ​https://www.perimeter.org

Recorded socially safe online and in the City of Peachtree Corners, Georgia

“We curate our narratives quite a bit right? We think about the stories that we want to live, or the lifestyle that we want to live and then we curate it…. But, one way or another to one degree or another, I really do feel that every individual, they curate their own narrative. And one of the things I’ve been challenging our people here at Perimeter, and just anyone that will have this conversation with me is to stop and take inventory of your narrative. And that’s not some kind of like big psychological or philosophical thing. It’s just simply, take stock of where you are. Where do you live? Who your friends are, who are your closest associates? You know, when do you ever interact with people that are not like you?”

JIMMY KIM

Podcast Transcript

Rico: [00:00:30] Hi, this is Rico Figliolini host of Peachtree Corners Life in the city of Peachtree Corners. We have a special show today. Part of a series of episodes that we’re going to be doing over the next two weeks. And my cohost in this is my cohost from Capitalist Sage, Karl Barham. So, and we have a great panel here to be able to discuss our issues today. So Karl, why don’t you lead it off?

Karl: [00:00:54] Sure. On may 26, 2020. there there’ve been a series of protests that started after an African-American male named George Floyd was killed during police arrest in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Then a couple of weeks later on June 12th a 27 year old African American father was shot and killed by Atlanta police after responding to a complaint that he was asleep in his car. If you look at today, June 25th, March, about a month that there have been protests around the country, involving, Social and racial justice, in the communities. Today on Peachtree Corners Life, we wanted to invite some local residents and leaders to start a discussion on community leadership in social and racial justice so that people could find ways at the local level right here in Peachtree Corners and others to impact, change as, as necessary to keep their communities safe for all citizens during encounters with law enforcement, but also find ways that individuals and community leaders can improve and address social injustice in its many forms. What can a citizen do? Let’s have that discussion. I’d like to start off by introducing our guests today and I’m going to go around and have each one of them introduce themselves, starting with, Julie Morgan, a resident here in Peachtree Corners. Why don’t you introduce yourself?

Julie: [00:02:19] Sure. My name is Julie, my husband and I have lived in Peachtree Corners for eight years now. He works in the film industry in, you know, all over Atlanta. We have three small children. When I moved to Peachtree Corners, I was a teacher in a charter school in DeKalb County. Once we had our daughter, our eldest daughter, I quit my job in order to stay home. We attend victory church in Norcross, which is one of the most diverse churches in the area. We live in the Greenleaf neighborhood, which is fairly diverse. And we love living here. I’ve been, I don’t know, Karl pegged me as a community leader. I don’t know if that’s accurate or not, but we host a lot of community events at our home. We just love being involved with people in Peachtree Corners.

Karl: [00:03:14] Thank you very much. Jimmy, why don’t you introduce yourself?

Jimmy: [00:03:16] Sure. Good afternoon, my name is Jimmy Kim. I am a Peachtree Corners resident, myself. We’ve been in, my wife and I and our family have been in Peachtree corners since wow, 2011. So a good amount of time. Actually it goes further back than that, but a long time in Peachtree Corners. We live, I guess, in the North Manner, subdivision or area. And my wife works as a scientist, a public health scientist. We have two kids that go to Simpson elementary. And for me, my job, I work at Perimeter Church as the director of redemptive unity perimeters, just up the street, 141, in Fulton County in Johns Creek, but a director of redemptive unity previous to that, or prior to that, I was working with high school students. So, and we had a pretty big reach with our high school ministry, including Norcross, Paul Duke, which is of course
a very, I have a vested interest in doing ministry and doing work in our community, both as a resident, but then also as a minister.

Karl: [00:04:16] Oh, excellent. Thank you. Keybo, love for you to introduce yourself. Many people might already know you. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you’re up to.

Keybo: [00:04:27] Thank you very much. My name is Keybo Taylor. I am originally from Lawrenceville, Georgia. Born and raised here in Gwinnett County. I think I’m one of the few original people that we meet from time to time. I have lived here practically my whole life. I’ve raised my family here, my kids, and now we’re currently raising our grandkids here. I’m a retired law enforcement professional. I spent 26 years with the Gwinnett County police department, where I retired at the rank of major. My connections to Peachtree Corners circle is, when I first got out of the Academy, I was assigned to the West side precinct and I spent a great deal of time during that time, working in the Peachtree Corners circle area. Came back to the West side precinct as a Lieutenant, as the daywatch commander, spent some more time there. And then a majority of my time in the police department was spent working in the criminal investigation division. So, you know, I’m fairly full manual with a lot of things that was going on in the Peachtree Corners circle area. As I said before, I am retired. I spent some time working in the school system, some time working in mental health, in the mental health field. And currently I’m a, a candidate democratic candidate for, the sheriff, the Sheriff’s position, here in the Sheriff’s office here in Gwinnett County.

Karl: [00:05:54] Fabulous. I’ll introduce myself for folks that may not have heard of, or heard from me before. I’m a local resident here at Peachtree Corner as well. I own and operate a business here. My family lives here and we’ve had the pleasure of living here for the past five plus years, in Peachtree Corners. And, I just really love the community and find different ways to be involved in the community in different ways. And, I met Rico, just reaching out, one day and, we met for coffee and started talking about, you know, we would have coffees every week. and just talk about things that are impacting the community. I love the work that Rico does in helping with communication and the publication within the community. And, and we’ve started to continue these dialogues and invite some guests along with us to talk about things that are happening in the community that are impacting the community. So, I’m just looking forward to, to this discussion on, community leadership, in, in the community. The community leadership, when it comes to topics of social and racial justice, I want to start off with, if I could throw out a question for discussion with the group, just, you know, as things have been happening, over the past month, how are, how have you been feeling about the protests and some of the issues around racial injustice that’s been happening in the country as a whole? And just curious how, how that’s been, that’s been received, your thoughts about that to begin with. Jimmy, do you mind if I start with you?

Jimmy: [00:07:29] Sure. I don’t mind at all. Yeah, as a minister and myself as a Korean American, my parents immigrated to the States in 1971. And so I’ve, I’ve only known America. A
US citizen and my parents were always very proud to talk about their experience as, as immigrants coming to the United States, being able to start small businesses and it’s a varying degrees of success. And, you know, they did their best to teach me about, you know, knowing my Korean heritage and culture and history. Ingraining those things in me, but then also pushing and challenging me to, to really, to become American. And that really has been a quest of mine, ever since young childhood, even into, into my forties. You know, for someone that’s an Asian American, who is often, for my Korean family and friends, hardly Korean enough. And then for my American friends, just because of the way that I look in my, my ethnic heritage, never American enough. You know, and that’s depends and varies between the different groups of people that I hang out with. But that can put you in a very interesting spot in terms of your own identity. And, so I say all that, because I do think that’s a, at the heart of it, a big part of where we find our country today, is this. An identity issue, right? It’s an identity issue. If you want to go all the way to the top, just about well, where is America now? What does America look like now? And, and then ultimately asking the question, should these things be happening? And for again, for me as a minister and as an Asian American, no, I don’t believe these things should be happening. I don’t think anyone’s intent in all of this was for things to unravel. That may be the intent of a very, very, very small select few, anarchists, if you will. But I think that is more the rarity than the norm. I think there is a lot of frustration. I think there is a lot of, of anger even, and a lot of misguided information that’s coming out and, really you see it out in the public sphere, the dialogue or the rhetoric is if you’re not for me, then you’re against me. And I think that can be very, very problematic when it comes to just having a civil discourse. I think we have lost our way in a lot of senses in having the, or having the ability to listen to someone, empathize with someone, and even with people that we may disagree with. And so, I feel uneasy for sure. I’m, I’m worried or concerned for my family and for my kids and for their safety. And I’ll end with this or this little part with this, you know, We, I participated in a march not too long ago, and a protest. And my son who is six years old, who had learned about Martin Luther King Jr. In school, was telling me, dad, I don’t want you to go on this protest or to this march. And I was telling him, you know what, this is what dad does. And this is why I believe I need to go. And he said, well, Martin Luther King Jr., he was fighting against those types of things about people being treated unfairly or unjustly because of their skin color and their heritage. And he died for that. Daddy, I don’t want you to go and be a part of something where you might put your life at risk. And we had a sobering conversation as sobering, as you can have with a six year old, right. About the realities of the world that we live in. But then also know we’ve got a lot of work to do, and that means we’ve got to listen. We have to build relationships with people. I really believe that.

Karl: [00:11:04] Thank you. Julie, maybe, maybe you could, you know, build on, I know you have young children and so you probably are having similar discussions.

Julie: [00:11:15] Yeah. You know, just kind of echoing what Jimmy said. We’re very people in America are just, there’s no in between, right? You’re, you’re either this side or that side. One thing that we talk a lot with our kids about is that, you know, you treat people the way you want to be treated regardless of what they look like. We have, I think we probably participated in the
same march, the one race march on Atlanta, last week. And, you know, we told our kids why we were going and what we were doing. And my seven year old said, cause she, there was one race march on stone mountain a couple of years ago, she said, well, mommy, didn’t, didn’t we solve that already? Like didn’t we solve racism? And you know, to her, when you, when you explain racism to a kid that somebody would treat somebody differently because their skin color is different. That actually makes no sense. Right? Like they just, they see it for how silly it is. And so in her mind, she was like, Oh, we already, we solved that problem right? Like now we’re all back to being kind to each other. And you know, that was heartbreaking because we had to say, no honey, there’s, you know, this keeps happening. People keep getting killed simply because they don’t look like someone else. And so we, you know, we have a lot of honest conversations with our kids. I feel like as, as white parents, we have to be having those conversations with our kids. I think a lot of white culture has not had those conversations, which is why we’re still dealing with this today.

Karl: [00:12:56] It’s interesting as, as, as you’re describing, what the conversation with your kids are dealing with. I’m curious, Keybo, when you look at this from your experience with law enforcement and what you’re hearing in the community, how do these protests strike you?

Keybo: [00:13:16] Well, being old enough to remember, I grew up in the sixties, I can remember the protests. I remember, Dr. King and a lot of his work. You see some stark similarities, but then again, there’s some strong, differences now than what we saw back then. And then also, you know, looking at it from a law enforcement perspective as something that I did. And it just gives me a little bit more insight, I would say to have more things to think about. Back in the sixties, protesting was really, one of the only remedies that we actually had, as African Americans to to bring the light on to, you know, the racial injustice, social injustice, and all the things that was going on at that time. Today, what you see is that we have so many other more platforms that we can use to get our, get the message out. Protesting is just one of it, one thing that we could do, but we have others. Also, another difference that you see now is, from then. Even though there were white people that was out there on the lines that was marching with King and doing things, on the scenes and behind the scenes to help advance, you know, social and racial justice for, the people here in America. What I see now is, is, is I’m so glad to see the number of diversity out there. I look at some of the marches and, you know, whites and others are just, they’re highly represented out there. So that brings a different set of awareness to what we’re dealing with. From a law enforcement perspective, you know, it’s, it’s unfortunate that you know, a lot of these things that is going on that we’re actually talking about and we’re addressing now has only come to light because you’ve seen the systematic racism that’s in law enforcement, along with the unchecked, excessive violence that you see, you know, coming from law enforcement. And I think when you see the, the assessive use of force, the violence toward people, and you marry that with the racism that you see this happening toward, African Americans, you know, it’s just, it’s, it’s so much more profound. You know, this, it’s what we used to say. It’s something that actually shocks the conscious that, you know, and it’s called, more people outside of African Americans, to take a look and say, Hey, wait a minute, hold on. This is not right. This is something that needs to change. And we need to go ahead and start
addressing these issues. And so when you see that and you see that they get started addressing these issues, then it brings to light other issues. You know, there’s so many other different social injustices that’s going on out here. Things that are, you know, that has been symbolic of racism that has gone on, in this country, practically throughout the history of this country, even, you know, back after the civil war. So we recognize, or I recognize that, you know, there’s some needs for some serious reform. Some serious change out here and not just on criminal justice, but on so many. I mean, there’s a lot of different other areas that we need to start looking at and taking steps toward reforming.

Karl: [00:16:57] I’m curious to get your perspective, you know, you know, over a year from, you know, your background in politics to today in the community, how did the protest and, and, and a lot of the discussion, appears to you.

Rico: [00:17:13] You know, it’s interesting. The, Jimmy brought this up, Keybo, and even Julie, the breadth of the diversity within the people that are protesting was something that, was, it was really apparent. I mean, then over, I’m 61 years old. And I don’t know how old Keybo is, but we’re, I go back a while. You know, when you see protests, you know, it’s, it’s almost tribal in a way, right. When I go back to my days in college, Italians hung out with Italians. We had the Italian American student union, you know, and they, you know, there were a couple of, African-American clubs. There were several, Jewish American clubs and stuff, a variety of clubs, but everyone had their own places it seemed. And, when I got to city college, it was, you know, my background from there was like, why are we all separated a little bit? And, you know, it mirrors society because even the government, the student government within a college system, whoever was in power was giving money to those that were their friends that shared the same maybe look or culture. You know, so, you know, when I got there, it was like, well, how come the Italian American student union is getting like $5 compared to these other clubs, getting thousands of dollars. An exaggeration, but you know, I’m a white guy, but still Italian Americans were, looked the same way it seemed. And that’s just a cultural thing. So imagine when it’s on your face, if you will. So I can’t be where you are like that. But I do see, you know, I’ve had friends in law enforcement that I wonder why they’re in law enforcement. You know, the, the way they would look at things and, you know, hearing them code words and stuff like that, that they would use in like, what are you guys talking about? And it’s just like the ridiculousness of it, because like Julie said, when you’re young and you have kids, kids don’t know anything, kids know whats there and it’s so innocent of, they’re not, they don’t have any parameters. Unfortunately they grow up through the school system and through their neighborhoods and where they are, and they don’t know any different and they learn from the people around them. So it really is a cultural change that has to happen. I forget which judge on the Supreme court said it best. I think where she said, you know, you can’t change just the laws. That won’t do it. We’ve done that. Right? The, the, the, civil war was fought, but there were slaves that until two years later still didn’t know they were free. So, I mean, if we don’t culturally change and accept and absorb other cultures and be tolerant, I think, I think this will just keep coming on.

Karl: [00:20:13] I think as you mentioned that, as you say that Rico, I think about, here locally in Gwinnett County or Metro Atlanta and the diversity that’s represented here in our community of Peachtree Corners. If you get down to the micro level, I see there’s an opportunity as we get closer to learn more about the different types of injustices that might be present, but not obvious to everyone. So I’m curious, you know, have you seen or experienced, injustices in whatever form, whether larger or smaller in, in your day to day life here in our community? I’d just be curious if anyone could share any experiences they might have had in this safe environment that we’re, we’re having, with our discussion. Maybe Keybo, I’ll start off with you.

Keybo: [00:21:06] Yes, when you look at it, the biggest thing, one of the, one of the, the issues that comes to mind with me right now is education. You know, and that is definitely a form of social injustice. I have a godson, he goes to, and I’m not going to call out the school’s name right now, but I can remember sitting in on some of the meetings with him, some of his IEP meetings and just watching how the stance that the school system took, toward not wanting to give this kid services that he needed and services that he deserved. And it took the parents having to have to go in and file complaints with the federal government and the state government to force the school system to come in and actually provide services under the law that this kid was entitled to. You know, that’s just one form of it. And then when you see, you know, if we talk about racial injustice, you know, there’s social, excuse me, sexual discrimination, you know, right now, based upon gender, you know, gender identity. You know, there’s, you know, a lot of people, you know, you see it and you see it almost every day, you know, as to what it looked like. But one of the biggest issues that I see is in healthcare. You know, and if we didn’t believe that there’s social injustice as far as health care goes, if we didn’t see that before this VOCID virus is really bringing it out to light now. When you see the racial breakup of people who are effected by it and what type of care that they’re getting. The lack of insurance, lack of coverage. You know, these are the things man that, you know, they just, you know, it’s right here in our face as we go along. So, that’s just a few things, man, and then from a police perspective, you know, when you look at it, if you look at the numbers, you know, when we’re talking about domestic violence, domestic violence toward women, you know, black, black women, you know, or, you know, they’re more or less, more so to be a victim of social, excuse me, domestic violence than any other, any other race or class or gender out here. So those are just a few things, man, that comes to mind for me.

Karl: [00:23:37] How about you, Julie? Have you, you know, as you’ve lived, have you seen, or what have you observed or experienced?

Julie: [00:23:46] So I crowdsourced this question a little bit with some of my friends last night. I have not personally felt discriminated against, or, you know, any injustices against me personally, but I was curious as to what some of my friends would say. And so the thing that kept, several people mentioned was just the wealth distribution in Peachtree Corners, you know, and then the representation on our city council and our other layers of government. It’s very much the wealthy white as the representation. You know, the money is in the Northern side of the County, whether you look at Simpson elementary versus Peachtree elementary, things like
sidewalks, you know, so that’s, that’s what people kept pointing to. This is a fairly controversial topic, so I’m a little bit hesitant to bring it up, but even the pedestrian bridge that’s going across Peachtree Parkway. Several years ago, the mayor asked for a pedestrian safety commission to be formed. And I was on that task force and we spent nine months studying pedestrian safety. Studying our area, looking at data from the Gwinnett County police as to where, you know, incidents were with traffic and pedestrians and things like that. And what we found was that the people in the Southern part of the city, they have to walk. It’s often a one-car family. They often walk to the grocery store to the bus stops, things like that to get to work. And so people who need to walk need a safe way to cross Peachtree Parkway, right? So we presented this information to the city council and to the Mayor and where does the bridge go? It goes on the Northern part of the city, you know, where people want to walk. They want to go from the forum to the town center and things like that. I know that there were other issues involved with the bridge and with development and things like that. But I feel like it’s a perfect example of we’re putting resources and money where it’s nice instead of where it’s needed, you know? And so I would love to see Peachtree Corners just as a community, we come together and we say, Hey, how can we help? You know, are you guys safely crossing the road? The data is showing that that’s not true. Would a bridge help? You know, would this money be better spent on better bus systems? Things like that.

Karl: [00:26:23] Jimmy, I wonder if, if you could comment as you see it, through the church at perimeter and others in the community. Have you seen it manifest itself in that, or, or even as you’re saying, just living in, in the community?

Jimmy: [00:26:39] Yeah, sure. I can, I have a lot of thoughts swirling in my head and, I’ll start with this. There was a lunch that I had at the Jason’s deli in the Forum with my daughter who at the time, I think was maybe only three or four years old. It was just her and I. And we’re enjoying a, you know, a daddy daughter date during lunch. And, there was another family behind us in the booth and they had a couple of young kids, a little older than my daughter, you know, perceivably. And, every Asian knows this, but, and is never, it doesn’t ever cease to amaze me, but we’ve all had this, the shared experience of someone making the slanty eye gesture toward you. I grew up with that. You know, you let it roll off your back, but it was geared toward my daughter. And this was the first time I’ve ever seen that and experienced that as a father, I should say. And, like any father would, I got pretty upset. And I had to internally calm myself down and I turned to these young kids and I said, Hey, I don’t know where you learned that from, but we don’t do that. That is, You know, what you, what you are doing. I didn’t say it quite like this, and you can kind of relive those moments whenever you live through something like this. You’re like, Oh, I should’ve said this instead. But to the effect of, Hey, we don’t devalue someone’s existence and minimize their existence to a gesture or to a facial feature or to a skin tone. I hope that you will stop using that and know that that is a very disrespectful thing that you just did. We finished our lunch and we went along our way. And, but that has just, it stung, it stung. And, and I say that to kind of get to a point about how we live in our own narratives, right? We, and in fact, we probably curate our narratives quite a bit right? We think about the stories that we want to live, or the lifestyle that we want to live and then we curate it. And
whether it’s out of comfort, maybe it’s out of control. Maybe it’s out of, I want to earn someone’s approval. So I’m going to live this way. I’m going to have this kind of lifestyle. For some it’s, you know, it’s out of fear there you have no other options. And so this is just the life that you have. But, one way or another to one degree or another, I really do feel that every individual, they curate their own narrative. And one of the things I’ve been challenging our people here at perimeter, and just anyone that will have this conversation with me is to stop and take inventory of your narrative. And that’s not some kind of like big psychological or philosophical thing. It’s just simply, take stock of where you are. Where do you live? Who your friends are, who are your closest associates? You know, when do you ever interact with people that are not like you, you know, and for, for minority people, that’s easy, right? I’m often around people who aren’t like me. But, and so for me, kind of going in and out of minority, majority culture, I’m pretty fluid at it. But if, if you’ve never had that experience or you don’t have those opportunities, and you’ve curated such a neat narrative for yourself where everything’s comfortable and I’m not saying comfort’s a bad thing, don’t you know, don’t hear me wrong. But when everything is curated to your liking, of course, when you see something like this happen, there’s a temptation to say, well, I’m going to turn off the TV. I’m going to turn off social media. I’m going to get away from it. I’m going to opt out of the conversation. And because of COVID, because of just the, the, the, the weightiness of the current situation it’s harder and harder to opt out. It’s harder and harder to tune off or turn off the narrative that’s coming to us and making us aware of the narrative that we’re in. And so the ways that I see injustices or, just racial disparity, is, is, in a lot of ways it’s implicit, we’ve put ourselves in these situations, not even realizing where we are, because we’re, we’re looking for personal comfort and we’re looking for other things besides, what ultimately, I believe where we were going to find our true value in life and our true purpose in life, which I believe is in, in Christness and God. And I believe that all human beings, regardless of your ethnicity or your race, regardless of your, you know, your paycheck size or where you live or what kind of car you drive or don’t drive that you are still made in his image in God’s image. And because of that, every human being has got inherent dignity. But it’s just so easy to ignore that. And then we say, well, you’re less dignified than me because of, and you come up with the reasons, right. Because we’ve curated our own narratives. And, and Julia, you mentioned this, I think one of the biggest ways that we see that in Peachtree Corners is just in the three schools that service or three elementary schools that service our city, right? You go from Stripling to Peachtree, to Simpson. You could not have a more vast difference in terms of our schools. Now, granted, I know like the, the neighborhoods that these schools are in are vastly different. But with my kids at Simpson, I mentor over at Peachtree. Kids are kids, you know? And, but you notice that, even attitude, you know, my attitude is different when I walk into my kid’s school versus the attitude that I have when I go over and mentor at Peachtree. And in the past, when I’ve mentored and had relationship with administration of Stripling, it’s very, very eyeopening. And I don’t exclude myself from that introspection. And I want, I would love to see more people introspect before accusing other people. Now that’s assuming a lot, and assuming the best out of my neighbors, but I will, I will venture to do that for the sake of our, you know, for the sake of the health of our community and our church overall.

Karl: [00:32:34] I can remember, years ago I had a mentor who, did an interesting thing. At the time I didn’t understand why, he did it, but he would volunteer his time. At an inner city school, although his kids didn’t go to that school or didn’t do it. And he was teaching everyone that was on his staff about leadership, and he said it was convenient to serve where it’s comfortable, your neighborhood, your church, your school, it’s the easiest. It’s the closest, your friends, family, the country clubs that you might participate in. What’s more uncomfortable is going out of that comfort zone and serving where there might be a greater need. And he found more fulfillment over his life, serving people that might’ve been different than him in communities that were different than him and helping put his talents, his resources, his connections to work. Whether it’s helping people find jobs, preparing resumes, learning leadership skills, communication skills. And he challenged everyone on his staff to do something similar. It was literally required of us to do it. That’s how we evaluate it. And what he was doing was he was trying to stretch us to learn. And build a habit into seeking out those things. So you don’t get comfortable with what’s easy and you find ways. And he was, he was being very selfish in, in a manner that he was trying to teach us to be better leaders. Because one day he might need us to lead a business somewhere. That, in, in China or in India or in different parts of the country, and we are going to have to learn how to work and relate with people. So it was part of his development plan. I see today in our community, plenty of opportunity for people to put their talents at work, in different places that are needed. It’s just, I wonder, I’m always curious as to how to make that easier for people. How do, how do we encourage people. And I see a couple different lanes from, in the business community, if you’re a CEO or a leader, you can, you can help develop your people in that way, by encourage them to get involved in causes that might help drive social and racial justice. If you’re an individual in your family, you can do family things together where you participate in communities helping bring talents and resources available to them. I’m curious, you know, in your discussions with your, your, your networks and community, have you seen examples of people doing that well? Rico, why don’t I start with you?

Rico: [00:35:30] Sure. I mean, with the podcasts I’ve been doing over the last three years with Peachtree Corners magazine. And, and, you know, quite frankly, I try to dig these things out if you will, because it’s not always apparent and it’s not always out there, right? I come from New York from Brooklyn and I was, I grew up first generation American. Also, my parents were immigrants. And so when I moved South from, from New York where I was working, doing constituent work for Chuck Schumer’s office, Congressmen, did that for a year. So I got to really learn a lot along those lines. So I moved down here to the South South of the Mason Dixon line, kind of funny, very different. You know, I would see people waving their hands at me as we drove down the street and I’d say to my wife, do we know them? And it’d be like no it’s just people being nice. Not that they’re not nice in New York, but it’s a little different, you know, so what I, what I made my mission to, to do is find out a bit more. I mean, I, I became, went from being a Brooklyn Catholic boy to a baptist. I realized a lot of the churches in the areas give back a lot. That they create these programs that, you can be involved in as a resident. So you don’t have to be stuck in what you’re doing and they’re not just doing it for, you know, Thanksgiving, you know, let’s go do the soup kitchen. They’re doing it 365 days a year. The kids are going on mission trips. I don’t think you can find, at least in certain places, you know, not every family’s
the same way, but I don’t think you can find families where they’re not doing, especially if the middle class let’s call it right? Because they’re on a mission to try to get the kids maybe to be involved in the community because it’s a different level, I think. And maybe I’m not putting this the right way in the sense that there’s time and money. And time and money gives you certain things, right? We all try to work hard. My dad was, worked 18 hour shifts to make sure that we were educated. So he didn’t have the time to make sure that we were involved in the community it was different. I have that time. My wife has that time. We’ve all been involved. So I do see that, I see a lot of organizations like Joe Sawyer’s bridges that helps the Peachtree Corners community. I see Peachtree Corners Baptist church, Mary Our Queen, a variety of denominations and they, all within them, do things in the community. Food drives, blood drives, any kind of drives you can think they’re doing, they’re involving their kids in it. So there’s a lot of stories like that to be able to be told. And we’ve done that in the magazine, not just organizations or individuals going out of their way, doing things. But you go back home after that. And it’s what you’re doing in your home really that counts. I like what Jimmy did turning to the kids at that diner because, were their parents embarrassed by the way? Cause I would have been embarrassed if my kids did that.

Jimmy: [00:38:37] Well, the mom happened to be not at the table at the time. Maybe she had gotten up to the salad bar, to the restroom. And then I don’t know if it was all tied in. Maybe they were waiting for their opportunity. I don’t like to think that that was what they were doing. It just all happened that way. And the kids turned around and they didn’t say anything after that. And I didn’t say anything to the mom afterwards, so.

Rico: [00:38:58] And that’s fine, depending on how the kid, how old the kids were, kids are kids and they do stupid things sometimes, you know, they innocently think maybe it’s funny and they just don’t know better. But there’s a lot about, there’s a lot about, a lot of stories out there to be helped. I’m still trying, I’m still finding more and more. I will never run out of stories to tell in this magazine or on the podcast. And you know that Karl, I mean, we go through a lot of interviews. I’d like to hear what these guys have to say though in their lives. Where are they pulling things from?

Julie: [00:39:34] You’re right. There’s tons of opportunities to serve. I think, I think there’s a danger in saying, okay, you know, I’ve done my service. Check. Now I’m going to go back to my comfortable circle. Like Jimmy was saying with everyone who is my friend looks exactly like me and we all do the same things and, you know, whatever. So what my husband and I have been intentional about the last couple of years is yes, do the community service things for sure. But also diversify your circle, whether that’s. You know, you have people over for dinner who don’t look like you, or you listen to authors and, you know, podcasters and voices who don’t look like you, or don’t think the same things that you think. Because once you are connected with people in a real and meaningful way then stuff like George Floyd hits home way harder. You know, like when you are friends with black men and you are, you know, your kids play with black boys, then that kind of situation is, is much more heartbreaking right? Whereas if you’re only surrounded by white people, if you are only. You only go to church with white people, you only
work with white people. Then you could look at a situation like George Floyd or Shard Brooks or any of the, any of that. And just kind of say, Oh, that, that’s sad and move on. And so, you know, I think yes, service is important, but I think we also need to all start with getting out of our comfort zones and reaching across the street, you know, the city, wherever and inviting people into our lives who aren’t like us. Because, I don’t know if you look at the systemic nature of racial injustice, it can be really overwhelming, right? And it’s overwhelming for me and for my husband to think, okay, well, what can we do about this, right? And so that’s why we’re determined to never go back to living in a white bubble, because that’s what, that’s what I can do to change, right? I can make sure my kids know not to make slanty eyes at people, you know, and they know why. And if they see somebody doing that, then they will say, Hey, that’s not nice or, or that’s wrong. And I, you know, Jimmy, I applaud you so much for standing up for your daughter and having her hear you stand up for her, right? Because that’s, that’s how we’re going to change this country is, you know, I don’t think myself personally is going to be able to dismantle the system, but I can start by building a new system with my children and my community, that will hopefully create some change.

Karl: [00:42:42] Wondering Keybo. Yeah, I was going to ask you to comment on, if you think about it from a community leadership level, whether it’s in local government, it’s in law enforcement, what would you like to see? What can leaders in that to help lift up the community since they have a role in leading the community?

Keybo: [00:43:06] Well, first of all, just to piggyback a little bit off of what we’re talking about here, the key to we all want change. And what does that change look like? What is that change? And so, you know, if we want transformative change, you know, two things we have to have is. The understanding of diversity. And we have to understand that the inclusion of that diversity, you know, it’s one thing to have, have an organization, an agency or whatever it is, and you can come out and say, well, look and see, you know, I have a diverse, my, my, my agency is diverse. I got people in position, A, B, C, D, but you know, when you look at it and you still see problems in those agencies, you go back and you say, well, you might have the diversity, but do you really have the inclusion? Okay. Are you actually listening to, and allowing that diversity to have a voice in how you craft your policies? You know what you do, what you don’t do, how you serve. And I hear everybody talking about service. I look at service in just a little bit different way. I believe service comes natural. I believe we serve every day. Every day you get up, you walk out here. You know, when you encounter, you know, you, you encounter people, you know, how you help folks if you help make the decision to help anybody, but anything that comes out of your mouth that could be influential is a service. You know, what you do, how you conduct yourself, you know, if you’re the head of an agency, you know, what are you doing to make sure that you know, everybody has a voice at the table and you’re doing the right thing for everybody in that organization or everybody in the community. So, you know, from an agency standpoint, I think that, you know, we have to start looking at, you know, putting leaders in places that, you know, have the Bishop, not just looking at, you know, Hey, I’m going to have this level of diversity, but you know, you have to be willing to, to set up, you know, being so that these people can have a voice in what .they’re doing and what you’re doing. So I just see it just,
you know, I mean, we’re all, I think we’re all on the same, we’re all seeing the same thing, you know, just from different aspects of it is what does that actually look like?

Karl: [00:45:36] I’m also wondering if you look at how to bring new voices to the table when decisions are being made. I see it, whether it’s in, a church, you could look at the elder community and the leaders of the church. You could look at the schools, the school boards, the people that support school board, you can look at it at, at the agencies that might support local government, whether it’s police. I don’t know if in Gwinnett County we have a community, a community board that communicates or liaisons with the police. And, and in cities like Gwinnett or Counties like Gwinette and others. But bringing these very voices to the table where one policies are made, two holding people accountable for, for the change we’re trying to see, at, at, at local levels. How do we, how do we as citizens or in parts of communities start impacting what our leaders do?

Keybo: [00:46:41] I think from that perspective, when you look at, and I’m talking about from law enforcement standpoint. You know, law enforcement, how you know, we’ve conducted business in the past, it will fundamentally change. You know, society is going to make sure. You know that it changed, you know, especially when you go back and you look, and when I say, look at the passion that people have out here now, what are we seeing? The more inclusive folks out here that is pushing for these changes. you have to have, you know, some internal things is going to have to change. You’re going to have to have some external things it’s going to have to change. And, you know, you can’t, you know, good leaders are not going to be, you know, resistant to having, you know, like citizens review panels out here that, you know, they can come in and help review some of the things that’s going on in your agency. I think that that’s going to be something that’s going to be necessary going forward. And I think that that’s something that all of the law enforcement agencies here in Gwinnett County should be, you know, taking a look at to see what that actually looks like.

Karl: [00:47:57] No, it’s, should people keep asking, asking that, you know, there’s the eight, campaign zero, the eight can’t wait, which has eight different policies that, at least some of their data approves that has been able to reduce excessive use of force on people of color includes citizen review board. It includes, holding leaders accountable and having to speak up. There’s a whole bunch of different policies in there. How do we get that on the table for the leaders to discuss, make decisions that includes in the example, Julie gave with the bridge earlier on, how do you make sure that the people at the table making decision include all the stakeholders, all the people that are impacted by the decision. So at least wherever decision comes the debate has had, is had. And everyone has to agree to a course of action that serves everyone, not just a smaller group.

Keybo: [00:48:55] Well, you know, first of all, you know, the and I agree with the fact that those external panels do help to show a reduction in, certain areas, such as use of force and, and things such as that. But what I say is this, it starts with leadership at the top. You know, I go back and I say, you know, going in, you have to have a leader that has the vision. To know and
understand what diversity is and not just saying that I have that diversity, but you have inclusion also. So that means that your diversity is actually, they’re interacting with the citizens. Okay. In their cultures, whatever that culture may be, and that they’re bringing that information back in, and then you’re able to sit down and come up and communicate and organize plans to where, you know, you’re understanding the different cultures, the different races and everything else that makes up Gwinnett county. And I say Gwinnett county, because I’m in Gwinnett County, that’s where it actually starts. So then the second part of it is, is that, you know, you have your staff and you have the same mindset is, is that everything that we’re doing at the top, we’re going to make sure that, that trickles down to the remaining staff. Okay, we’re going to go in and we’re going to change policies. We’re going to look at use of force. We’re going to look at officer’s complaints. You know, we’re gonna look at, you know, all we doing the right thing when we’re applying force? You know, what was good yesterday obviously it’s not good today. So you have to have, you know, someone in leadership that has the visionary to see and project, Hey, this is what we’re moving to. And you, you know, you gotta be willing to adapt to what, you know, what we’re seeing now and, and make changes. This, everything that we talk about can happen. Okay. It’s not just the external things. Where it starts at is internally inside of those agencies or you bring it in, you know, what policies are you changing? What are you willing to do? You know, and, you know, and, and again too, you know, and to make a long story short, we have to be willing to listen to the public. You know, you have to be willing to listen to you know, diverse groups outside. And I say, you know, one thing that I look at is that, you know, and, Jimmy has alluded to, you know, the faith based community. That’s very important, but see, one thing that we’re not talking about is that we’ve gotten, you know, it’s almost like one of those Godzilla movies where we’re waking Godzilla up. We’re waking these youth up, out here. These youth are passionate. You know, we just have to make sure that we channel that passion in the right way so that they have a voice that is heard. And we have to listen to what they’re saying. We have to make sure that we’re including these people in, at the table, hearing what they have to say and coming up with plans to where, you know, they can feel safe in the future. And if they don’t feel safe, then we’re not doing our job out here, whether that’s law enforcement, whether that’s community leaders, whether that’s church leaders, you know, whether that’s parents, you know, whatever it is, we need to do more to make sure that everybody is being heard and everybody’s doing their part.

Karl: [00:52:25] Thank you and well said on that. I know we’re coming up to the top of the hour and I wanted to ask a last question to everybody. So to consider, you know, if, if there was a wish that you could have on, on something to impact change all around social and racial justice in our community here in Peachtree Corners, I’d be curious what your thoughts would be around that for, for people. So, Jimmy, maybe, maybe I could start with you.

Jimmy: [00:52:55] Sure. Yeah. Well, one, I do think, active engagement goes a long way. So whether that’s, at the school level, engaging with, your children’s classroom, getting to know your teachers, getting to know administration, you know, and actively seeking opportunities to serve and not just, you know, not only your specific school, but thinking about your cluster as well. So, you know, with a fifth grader, next year. And I’m already thinking about Pinckneyville
and thinking about what are some ways that I can get involved there and who are the people that, maybe I need to get in touch with about carrying on conversations, you know, teenage years, or just a difficult time to begin with. And so how can we support other parents? Because at that point it becomes less about what are the external issues. People are thinking about internal issues of my, my child is behaving in this manner and I need support and I need help. And so thinking about that, also, just being intentional with, when we go out. I’ve tried really hard, lately not to, not to judge my city. It sometimes it’s very hard to do that. And when I say judge my city, I mean, like as a Korean American, there are no Korean American restaurants in Peachtree Corners. Let’s just be honest, loosely Asian and hard pressed. and that’s just me. So I will go down to Buford highway and I’ll go to over to Duluth for those things. But, when I do dine in my city and I do want to support local businesses, I want to support the local economy. When I do I’m often just looking around if I’m there with my kids and my wife, I’ll ask my kids, Hey, do you recognize anyone from your school? Do you okay? I’m going to, as an introvert, this is really hard. I’m going to muster up the courage. I’m going to go over and say, Hey, I don’t know you, but my kids recognize your kids, you know, they go to the same school. Just wanted to introduce myself. And, and hopefully let that be kind of a, a conversation starter and perhaps I’ll see them at the school again for some events or maybe I’ll see them somewhere else in the community. This summer we didn’t have this, but you know, Gwinnett County, summer swim is a great, great opportunity. Get to know some of my own neighbors within my own swim team, but then also as I mingle with other parents and families, and for me again, as a minority person, I do think that there is a responsibility for me to reach out because I don’t know. And I don’t want to assume that people are going to reach out to me. Oh, there’s an Asian guy. Let’s go make him my friend. I know that, how that might feel. And I know how that might sound. It just sounds too tokenistic. It just feels like what’s, I think Keybo you’re getting at, it’s just more of the diversity for diversity’s sake, counting the noses in the crowd so to say. So knowing this myself, I have to take it upon myself to introduce myself to other people and get to know people within my community. I don’t know if I can speak as eloquently as Keybo did just in regards to like on the top down. But I’m thinking oftentimes bottom up. So for me, that’s my immediate neighborhood, my street, thinking about the kid, the other kids that are in my kids’ classrooms and their teachers thinking also obviously about my church and the faith community and what I can do to help foster some of those conversations, because let’s be honest, the indictment against the church is often that we have set up this enclave. and it’s not as missional and as now as outwardly focused, as I believe the gospel demands that Christians be. Because it’s comfortable, it’s easy to be around people like you. I’m guilty of this myself. And I want to challenge myself as well as my neighbors in Peachtree Corners more broadly, Hey, let’s get to know some other people. And when we disagree, can we stop and listen and try to learn a little bit about why they made us agree from our viewpoint and maybe just maybe that empathy and that amount of pateince can possibly lead to deeper friendships, deeper relationships, and to deeper lasting community change.

Karl: [00:56:59] I love that Jimmy, and sign me up. You and I, we’ll get together with the families and let’s lead by example and get that started. Julie, what would your wish be? If, if, if there could be a change implemented.

Julie: [00:57:16] I’m, I echo what Jimmy said, as you were thinking, as you were talking, I was thinking about something that Decatur did. I don’t know, maybe a year ago they had, they just signed people up to have dinners at different people’s houses, you know, and I would love if we could figure out a social distancing way to bring people together and, you know, maybe have a picnic in the yard or something, just to seek to understand each other, I think that would be, you know, I’m all about that. I’m all about gathering people over food. But secondly, you know, going back to what Keybo was saying, I would love to have confidence in our system top down, you know, and I would love to have some transparency from Gwinnett County police and from, you know, our local law officials and elected officials, like what, what is happening? You know, and, and how can we support, both support the police and law enforcement so that they can do their jobs well. But also, how can we trust that they are doing their job to protect and serve all of the people? So I, you know, I would just love some transparency. I would love to be on a citizen board or, you know, have that be organized. I think that sounds fantastic. And yeah, I’m all about it.

Karl: [00:58:39] I’m going to throw it to you Rico. What change would you like to see?

Rico: [00:58:47] Keybo hit it right though, right? If you don’t have, I don’t want to distill it down to a Chick-fil-A, but if you go to Chick-fil-A, right? The leadership down, everyone knows what is expected. What’s coming out of that window. It’s service. There’s a certain attitude of service. I think government needs to be that way. It needs to not just trickle down that needs that waterfall coming down from the top. If you don’t have the leadership, that’s going to provide that. It’s difficult for the rest of it to sort of fall in place. So I, I agree with Keybo that it needs to start there. Certain things I, listen, I think it was, Andrew Cuomo, that just accepted the, just with executive order put in the, eight, rules that we were just talking about.

Karl: [00:59:35] Eight Can’t Wait.

Rico: [00:59:36] Yeah, eight can’t wait. So he just did, he just put that in through executive order. Leadership like that can, can help right? So I, you know, there’s that, there’s also involvement. I mean, you’re right. You can’t stop at a you know, just an organizational department involvement. You need it to do it in a personal involvement. And it shouldn’t stop at your door, but you know, it’s difficult, people are paying the bills, they’re working, life goes on. So it’s a difficult proposition, I think, for people to do that. You know, I mean, but it needs to start with the boss, with the leader within the head going down, but people have to have that buy-in also right. They have to realize it’s good for them too, because if it’s not, it’s not going to go anywhere. And if it’s good for them, listen, Jimmy, we talk about Korean restaurants in Peachtree Corners all right. You can do soul train, which is something that Gwinnett County does, right. I love Korean food. I love Italian food. I love food, Julia right? Food will bring people together, you know, but all of us, there’s always something that’s gonna affect us. I mean, I won’t tell you what company it was, what organization, but someone when it first came down, decided they needed to put my picture on the mugshots of most wanted. And I don’t know, it
was done for funny or not, but I’m Italian and I guess they thought it was funny, like a mobster type thing. I didn’t think it was funny, but things happen. Sometimes you do have to let it roll off you. And sometimes you just, just set them straight, you know, just talk about it and, and people get to understand you. So you do have to be open and sometimes it’s past your comfort zone. So we all have to work on this. It doesn’t, you can’t just let one, expect that one group is going to do it. We all have to do it. Otherwise it’s just not going anywhere.

Keybo: [01:01:34] I was just gonna say, you know, Jimmy, I just learned a Korean barbecue and part of my, you know, if you ever see me, you know, I love to eat. Okay. So I’m searching. But, one thing that Julie had brought up and we started laughing because Karl and I when we spoke yesterday, we talked about the dinners that you’re talking about and they’re called Chicago dinners, and that’s exactly what it’s called. And I was telling Karl yesterday that I think it would be good for him to reach out to those, to the people that actually set those up. And maybe look at hosting one. Julie, I’m also putting that challenge, I’m going to put that to you also. I think that that’s great. You know, when we look at and what we talk about changes and what that looks like, what it should look like. You know, we also got to look at including an advocacies in there too, because that’s a very important part that is actually missing. You know, so that participation has to be, you know, they have to be, you know, we have to talk about being culturally competent and, and, and then close up in our policy changes. So learning the different cultures and making sure that we include them in on. What, what is going on and what’s being said. And, you know, just the last thing is, is when, you know, you gotta have, you know, this is something else to call them. I talked about, you know, when do you have the courage to step up and say, or intervene when you see things that are not, you know, that it’s being done that’s not right. It was, it was good to hear you, Julie, say that you wanted transparency. You know, and one thing that I talk about all the time is, is trust and transparency. And, you know, you recognize it. But if you go into, you know, communities, especially communities of color, Asian communities there, you know, Hispanic communities, Latino Hispanic communities, the first thing you hear about is the lack of trust. And when you’re not transparent that doesn’t break the trust. And somewhere along the line, You know, we have to, again, break those cycles so that, you know, we go into these communities. Especially, especially from a law enforcement standpoint, you know, everybody has to, you know, trust what is going on and that’s 90% of what you see. Let me rephrase that 99% of what you see right now is the lack of trust and, you know, from the law enforcement community, you know, we have fostered that system to where there is no trust. Nobody trusts whether you’re right or wrong. It’s just the lack of trust there. So, you know, we’re going to have to go back in and figure out, you know, what do we do? How do we reestablish trust? And Julie, you know, more people like you are going to have to be the ones that are stepping up to saying that, Hey, you know, issuing that challenge, not just for people of color, but you know, we have to have that voice from you also saying, Hey, you know what? We have to have a department, you know, or an agency here that, you know, that is transparent and that we can trust is going to do the right thing.

Karl: [01:04:54] Oh, I love, I love, I love that, that you highlight that, that issue of trust. And if I could wrap up with, with what my wish would be. I pray for a day when leaders emerge that
bring both their heart and their minds together to lead the people in the community from whether you’re leading in your house, whether you’re leading in your business or your church or your school, or you’re leading in government, look at the information that’s out there. Understand different points of view, formulate policies and communicate them to drive. But also listen with your heart and, and understand a different point of a, step out and there’s a couple of ways to do that. I’d love to see people in the community that have these traits step up and lead. Run for elected office. Get involved in, in, in community, take your talents that you have that made you successful in life and work and business and bring it to address some of these social justice, whether it’s around ageism, whether it’s around sexism, whether it’s around racism, take the talents that you have. And bring it to a higher cause where the whole community benefits. There are some leaders that might already be in place and they can go through that transition themselves and challenge themselves to learn and grow. I know that sounds broad and wide, but I think if individuals, look in themselves and make a choice to do this, it can transform communities where the things that are happening in Minneapolis. The thing that happened in Atlanta, it’s harder. It insulates us from that here because we are working together to arm the police with the right training tools, information so they can make good choices. And the residents to work with the police so that, they’re able to do their job effectively, yet people in the community can do something as simple as Jimmy did and just say, you know, kids, that’s not the right way to behave. That’s not acceptable. And maybe we should bring your parents into this conversation about how you’ve chosen to treat other people that are different and maybe bring them, bring them to some calming understanding or holding their own kids accountable. But I think it takes, I think leadership starts with building trust and the more we could do that in this community, the more we could avoid some of the challenges that other cities have been facing. So I want to thank you all. This was, this was brave for folks to step out and have this conversation. We would be having over dinner or over lunch or over coffee, and we’re doing it in a public way. And we encourage other people in their small groups, in church, in their, in their work groups, in their families, sit down, have these discussions, explore their hearts and their minds. And get involved, whether it’s challenging the leader for accountability. Whether it’s getting involved in the local school, your school or other schools that might need your talent. But I think we could all pull together and do something. I like that idea of this grassroot and let’s not wait for top down. Start at the grassroots. And folks like Keybo and others may start at the top down. Let’s meet in the middle somewhere. Thank you guys. Rico wrap up Peachtree Corners?

Rico: [01:08:28] I’d like to say that we had a lot of commentary by the way in the comments. So I want to say thank you to, to the people that showed up that put some great comments online during the discussion. TeKesha Wideman-Smith, if I’m pronouncing that right. Josiah Morgan, a bunch of people on here that, Mo Reilley that participated in commentary. So there was good stuff going on online while we were also discussing here. So I, I, I appreciate you guys coming out. This is a tough discussion to have, and, I’m glad that we had you on the first show. And having Keybo, you know, who I’ve interviewed before. I love Keybo. I hope you win your runoff that you’re in, right? Jimmy it’s good having you and Julie, thank you for coming on too. Karl it’s always a pleasure working with you on these podcasts.

Karl: [01:09:18] My pleasure. You taught me so much. So, you make me, got me out of my comfort. I am an introvert as well Jimmy. And, sometimes you got to step out of your comfort and do what your heart tells you is right. So look forward for more. We have more guests that are coming on and we invite citizens. If you’re, if you’re interested in being part of a discussion, please feel free to reach out to me, Karl Barham. You could find me on Facebook. You could post on Peachtree Corners Life, and, or, you can reach me at, KBarham@tworld.com and love to have a discussion and continue this and just show lead by example, we could have these discussions and try to make a change. Thanks.

Keybo: [01:10:00] Hey Karl, can I say one last thing? I don’t want to turn this into a political pitch, but I just want the people out there to know. I am running to be your next Sheriff of Gwinnett County. And if you believe in what I’m saying, please go out and vote for me and give me this opportunity to try to affect this change.

Karl: [01:10:20] Thank you. Good luck.

Keybo: [01:10:23] Thank you.