Wendy Kinney, Power Generator, giving her sage advice on networking with your hosts Karl Barham and Rico Figliolini. Recorded at Atlanta Tech Park in City of Peachtree Corners, Georgia
In this episode of the Capitalist Sage Podcast, Karl and Rico talk to Wendy Kinney – a referral marketing expert. Wendy shares knowledge and advice about how to find networking associations that are a good fit, common mistakes people often make in a referral market, and the importance of referral marketing in expanding your network.
How to contact Wendy: 404-816-3377
“So, someone once explained to me that the difference between a homeless person and Warren Buffet is timeline. The homeless person wonders what he’s going to eat tonight. Warren Buffet knows what his grandchildren are going to eat. So the homeless person is thinking, “Can I get 20 bucks. Can I go to burger king?” Warren Buffet is thinking, “Where am I gonna take my family on vacation three years from now?” And that timeline is crucial for referrals. Cold calling is – I’m gonna call you, I’m gonna interrupt what you’re doing, you’re either gonna say yes or not to me, and I’m gonna move on. Referrals has a timeline. And that’s the first thing that people miss. They want it to be instant.”Wendy Kinney
Audiences transform from groups of passive strangers to active, individual participants learning new skills together. People are meeting. New contacts are being made. Sparks fly.
Wendy Kinney created Ready… Set… Go Make Money! networking methodology from her 21 years of researching, experimenting and confirming what works for networking.
She opened the Atlanta office of PowerCore in 1995; since then PowerCore Teams in the metro Atlanta Area have connected more than 15,898 Members.
Wendy continues to guide Atlanta’s entrepreneurial community into the lucrative and exciting world of network and referral marketing. And she’s gone global, bringing her proven methods and innovative techniques for creating ah-ha’s and shocks of recognition to corporate events around the world.
Karl [00:01]: Welcome to the Capitalist Sage Podcast. We’re here to bring you advice and tips from seasoned pros and experts to help you improve your business. I’m Carl Barham.
Rico [00:08]: And I’m Rico Figliolini.
Karl [00:09]: I’m with Transworld Business Advisor, and Rico is with Mighty Rocket Digital Marketing and the publisher of the Peachtree Corner Magazine. Rico! How about telling us about our sponsors today?
Rico [00:22]: Sure. First thing is – I just want to let you know, we’re in the podcast studios at Atlanta Tech park in Tech Park Atlanta.
Karl [00:30]: That’s right.
Rico [00:31]: Love the name. It’s in the city of Peachtree Corners. So we’re in the middle of this accelerator here in Peachtree Corners. Now what is that – the incubator that’s at Prototype Prime just down the block. So this is a great hub for technology. So this is where we’re at doing this podcast.
Karl [00:49]: Part of Curiosity Lab of –
Rico [00:52]: Well, Curiosity Lab actually encompasses now Prototype Prime as long as a one and a half mile autonomous vehicle track, and I think it’s the Georgia Tech professional education services that’s being conducted out of there as well.
Karl [01:08]: Absolutely. A live lab in Peachtree Corners. Fabulous.
Rico [01:11]: So one – the only one I should, probably one of several, but the only one that made it in Atlanta. A live lab where people can actually put their autonomous vehicles and stuff into a real track. So that’s where we are here, just to give you an essence. Peachtree Corners magazine and the family of podcasts which includes Capitalist Sage is also a media sponsor for Smart City Expo Atlanta, which is an offshoot of the annual Barcelona event that’s done internationally. So this expo happens in September – it’s the first one in North America. Curiosity Lab in Peachtree Corners will have an offsite demo place in its racing place that the attendees of this expo can come to and check out the track and all the stuff that’s gonna go on there. Because they should hopefully be done in about 48 days – at least the PC portion of that to be able to share. The Smart City Expo is the first one of three years that are going to be here and the World Congress Center, and it’s right at smart cities and bringing it down to the people that would actually be using it on the boardway. So not just businesses. And, also want to welcome, for the first time, Gwinnett Medical Center. They’re a sponsor of our podcast as well. So they’re actually opening up a place – they’re entering Peachtree Corners. It’s called the GMC Primary Care and Specialty Center of Peachtree Corners, and they’re gonna have a lot of premier, first rate primary care services and specialty services. For those people that want to know where it is, if you’re familiar with the old Abuelita’s restaurant, which is the building that’s been completely gutted and renovated, just south of the QT of Peachtree Corners.
Karl [02:57]: That’s right. Right across from the farm. So if you can find the farm, you’ll be able to find this medical center.
Rico [03:01]: And if you find the QT or Climate Smoothie which is in that same place.
Karl [03:05]: That’s it. Good – thank you very much for introducing our sponsors. Today’s guest is Wendy Kinney. An entrepreneur, business owner, network and relationship marketing expert. Wendy opened the Atlanta office of Power Core back in 1995 and has connected over 15,000 members, helping people grow their business through network and referral marketing. Just want to thank you for joining us today, and why don’t you introduce yourself a little bit more to our audience?
Wendy [03:36]: Thank you, Karl, I’m honored, and Rico – I’m honored to be invited and participate in this. I think you’re doing good work, so, that’s good.
Karl [03:44]: Thank you. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about how you got into this space?
Wendy [03:49]: I visited my first Power Core team, and all Power Core meetings are at seven o’clock in the morning, in Melbourne, Florida at the Hyatt across from the airport. And it was two hours from where I lived. And the reason I agreed to go to a 7 AM meeting two hours from home, because you’re already doing the math on what time they had to leave and get up and all that, right? Was because I’m incredibly shy. I had a hard time getting to events that were close to home. I would very often get dressed, get in the car, drive in the event, circle the parking lot and get home. And I figured if it was two hours away, I would actually go in because if I embarrassed myself, I wouldn’t have to kill anyone. So that was my first experience in that situation.
Karl [04:33]: Oh wow, fabulous. So when you found Power Core – why don’t you describe what Power Core is for folks that don’t know?
Wendy [04:40]: So, it’s a business referral network, and there are 21 different types of networking associations. So think of them as languages. Think of them as Greek and French and Spanish and Portuguese. And if I prepared for a trip to Brazil by taking Spanish lessons, when I got there, I would be, best case, ineffective and, worst case, offensive because they speak Portuguese, right? And so, associations are like that too. Each association has its own purpose, has its own language. And Power Core is the type of association that is codified, close contact. And what that means is that there’s a group of people who meet once a week. These people are not in competition with each other. And their purpose is to build the credibility required to recognize and refer their clients to each other. So they know each other closely. And this – the reason that that very first meeting worked for me was because one of the presentations was being done by the CPA. And I sat there during his presentation taking notes and thinking to myself, “How come the guy I’m paying isn’t telling me this? Why isn’t my own CPA telling me this?” And it was so powerful to me to recognize, and I could see right there already, that if I had a question, I could ask the banker. Just right after the meeting, and he would have answered me. If I had a question, I could just ask the attorney, and he would just answer me. And I didn’t have another place in my life where that existed. And that was my motivation. I – I know that most people join because they want the referrals, right? But my motivation was – I need these people in my life. I had just come off a very bad business failure. Do you want to know what it was? I bought a restaurant.
Rico [06:25]: That’ll do it all.
Wendy [06:28]: Big mistake. Big mistake. And what I realized, sitting there, was – if I had had these people in my life, I would have not been a failure as a restauranteur.
Karl [06:40]: That’s fabulous – it’s interesting having advisors and people that you can go to to help you at – grow your business is really key. And having this group that, by structure, you’re getting to know them very well, I could see that building kind of, like, almost a board of directors, a kitchen cabinet, or small council – whatever you want to call them. But they’re these people that you can go to for those questions. And along the way, you happen to be able to help each other do business.
Wendy [07:10]: Yes. Yes. And when I first joined, I didn’t think anyone would have referrals for me. I was wrong, but I was clear. And what I learned and what I tell people now is – these people are cheering for your success more than any other people in your life. More than family, more than anyone. These people want you to be successful. They’re building you up, they’re holding you up, they’re introducing you to prospects. This is your cheerleader, right here.
Karl [07:38]: So what do you think people miss, when you see folks looking to grow? So I talk to business owners all the time. Pretty much most of them have a revenue problem. They don’t grow enough money. You ask them, “What do you spend on marketing, what do you do for marketing?” They say, “Referrals. I built my business on referrals.” What are they missing when they’re looking at their business and how they’re approaching it and how someone that really wants to really drive their business using referrals can do.
Wendy [08:05]: Yeah. Two things. The first thing that they’re missing is timeline. So, someone once explained to me that the difference between a homeless person and Warren Buffet is timeline. The homeless person wonders what he’s going to eat tonight. Warren Buffet knows what his grandchildren are going to eat. So the homeless person is thinking, “Can I get 20 bucks. Can I go to burger king?” Warren Buffet is thinking, “Where am I gonna take my family on vacation three years from now?” And that timeline is crucial for referrals. Cold calling is – I’m gonna call you, I’m gonna interrupt what you’re doing, you’re either gonna say yes or not to me, and I’m gonna move on. Referrals has a timeline. And that’s the first thing that people miss. They want it to be instant. Yeah.
Rico [08:48]: I’ve been – I didn’t do Power Core. I did another – I won’t name it – I did another networking group. And the other networking group was more like – wasn’t like this. I mean they had the –
Wendy [09:03]: I think you should name it. I really do. Just because it will be clearer.
Rico [09:07]: It’s been a long time, it’s BNI.
Wendy [09:10]: But I just think it’ll be clearer.
Rico [09:11]: Okay. So BNI is this Business Network International. It’s been around a long time. Same thing. 7 o’clock in the morning, we all did the one minute, two-minute elevator screens. We all had to share leads. It was almost mandatory – it was almost like you were shamed if you didn’t do it. And it was always typically the same type of business. An accountant, lawyer, it’s always the typical. And I just felt very – I just wasn’t feeling it. And I’m –
Wendy [09:45]: So here’s – here’s my response to that. I believe that associations are like blue jeans. Not every pair of jeans fits every butt. Can I say that? Do I need to rerecord? And as soon as you try it on, you know if it’s a fit for you or not. And if it’s not a fit for you, it’s okay. There’s nothing wrong with you and there’s nothing wrong with the jeans. So I have no illusions that anyone should belong to any one type of association. I think that’s part of the reason why there’s 21 different associations. I think we all need to belong to three different types, but it doesn’t matter which type we belong to. As long as we work each type according to its purpose, right? So. Finding out, and finding out quickly, that it’s not for you – I think that’s a good thing.
Rico [10:34]: Yeah, I don’t disagree, and it didn’t take me too long. I think it was about four or five weeks, which I thought was long, I thought I needed to do a little bit more. And I found my network and my referrals confirmed with different –
Wendy [10:46]: So I want to – I want to address how long is long enough. Just in the general referral marketing thing. So I told you that I belonged – I believe that we each need to belong to three different types of associations. I believe very firmly that we need to belong to an association where every member is a prospect. Now that would not be a close contact association. So if someone went to a close contact association, selling to the people at the table and the people at the people then buy with them, they would think they were unsuccessful. However, it would be because they were speaking the wrong language, right? So that’s really important. So there needs to be, in my marketing portfolio, one association where every member of that association is indeed a prospect for me. There needs to be a second association in my portfolio where every member is a gate opener for me. A gate opener is a person who will never do business with me personally, but is in a position to send me one referral a month like clockwork. And I need to belong to a third association with this broader cross-section of people as possible. And for most people, that’s what Power Core is. Where there’s this broader cross-section of people – so watch, I’ve got depth in the first two, I’ve got width in the second one. And that depth and width is what gives a marketing plan stability. And I believe that everyone needs to belong to those three things, and then – and so here we go. Here’s – I know that was a long answer to come back. Once my private clients make those three choices, it’s a three year decision. So now we’re coming back to the difference between the homeless person and Warren Buffett. So the important piece here is, five or six weeks isn’t long enough to know. It’s just not. And it’s long enough to know the jeans don’t fit or you don’t like the jeans, right? But once people make a decision, the difference between success and failure and referral marketing is being a member long enough for these people to know you. So the team I was at today – I was at Cumberland today. And David Arnold turned in a business slip from a guy who was a member of his team fourteen years ago. Fourteen years ago. And now he’s moving to Denver. Now. Fourteen years later! Of all the real estate agents in the greater metro area, this guy knows David the best. And that’s a long – that’s a Warren Buffet time frame, right? So when people use – there’s only three ways to get new clients. Advertising, cold-calling, referrals. When people use an advertising or cold-calling mindset in a referral marketing plan, you’re always gonna be ripping up these plans before the roots have had time to form.
Karl [13:25]: Yeah. It’s a good thing to know as I’ve ventured out and talked to a lot of the folks and participated in some of these different – getting to know people, part of it, if you think about it, it’s hard for me to refer to you, and we’ve known each other for a while now. And we’ve worked together, and I know what you do, little by little, many small conversations. I know details. But I now know how to listen for things. And I’ll say, “Hey Rico, there’s someone here that you need to talk to because of our conversation we had” that if we didn’t stick through this and meet every week and chat all the time, I wouldn’t have known that.
Rico [14:04]: You know what I find out – I find that I don’t know the two organizations you’re talking about – all have to be networking, quote networking? Because what I find is that, when I belong to an association, let’s say the America – the Atlantic Marketing Association, which is going to –
Wendy [14:21]: That’s a really good example of an industry specific association.
Rico [14:25]: Now, there I find that, because maybe because of what I do particularly –
Wendy [14:31]: No, I think these jeans just fit your personality.
Rico [14:35]: Maybe. Because I don’t like being necessarily a member in an organization as opposed to being a board member. I want to be an effective person that could bring value to that organization. And in doing so, expand the value of the organization. And bring – and when you do that, I think, when you get in, then you get it.
Wendy [14:55]: Yeah. So the key in this three-year trajectory is to be a visible, committee member or board member by the end of the first year. So everyone needs to be on a leadership track, a visibility track – just from the very beginning. Go find out where there’s a hole that fits me, right? Because I don’t want to volunteer for a board position that’s onerous for me, right? Find – always work in your area of strength. Always work in your area of strength.
Karl [15:24]: That leads me to one thing that does, when people get that involved, it starts building credibility. I know that’s one of the important elements of getting referrals. Help folks understand why credibility is so important and how people build that and build that.
Wendy [15:39]: Yeah, so I just came from a lunch conversation with someone who was referencing a person who we both know. And he cost himself any referrals from her or from me because he blew his credibility. And he blew his credibility in very specific ways. The easiest way to get credibility is to say, “I’ll call you at 10 o’clock tomorrow,” and then do it! Right? Because if I say I’ll call you at ten o’clock tomorrow, and at ten o’clock tomorrow I get your voicemail and I say, “Hey this is Wendy,” you’re gonna listen to that voicemail and go, “Ooh, she did what she said she was gonna do.” If you answer the phone, you’re gonna be, “Okay, she did what she said she was gonna do.” I can count on her – if I refer to her, my clients are going to experience the same thing. The easiest way to bust credibility is to not do what you said you were going to do. So whether that is not performing well as a leader, or not showing up for a lunch appointment, or not performing in some other way that I said I was going to, that’s referral death.
Karl [16:44]: So I’m wondering. As people start putting together a plan on building credibility, are there tools and strategies that they can use to start to pull some of this together to be more effective in getting referrals?
Wendy [16:59]: Yeah. So, so let’s start with the concept of meeting one-on-one for coffee. So those one-on-one meetings, as you just expressed to Rico – those meeting where people are just talking and beginning a friendship because referrals are always between friends. And beginning that friendship – those are really important. So I can strategically make a plan to have one coffee meeting in between every meeting with the association. So you like AMA meets monthly – in between every month’s meeting, you’re going to have lunch with some person from that association. Now watch what happens. Remember my three-year path. In month number one, you have lunch with Art. And when you go in month number two, Art’s gonna say – “Oh, hey! I want to introduce you to Scott, Tom and Jerry.” And in month number two, you’re going to have lunch with Betty. And when you go onto meeting number 3, Betty’a gonna say, “Oh I want to introduce you to Carla and Deborah and Sally.” And in month number four – are you getting it? And so what happens is – if you have lunch with one person in between every meeting, those people become your advocates and your champions at the next week’s meeting – or the next month’s meeting. And by the end of twelve months – twelve meetings, you’ve got a whole group who knows who you are and knows your name and recognizes you – I don’t know what you do yet. But they know who are, they know what you do, they know your name. And if you saw them Friday night at pizza, they’d come up to your table and say hi! When people don’t have a proactive strategy to do that, networking doesn’t work for them.
Karl [18:43]: That’s super key. I notice that another thing, as you start talking with folks, in the cold networking kind of groups, if you’re trying to sell to people, that’s speaking the wrong line.
Wendy [18:57]: It’s so speaking the wrong line.
Karl [18:59]: So if I’m trained in sales, and I know – I don’t know if you’re familiar with Challenger, Inside Be Sellings – some of those kinds of things. One of those key things is changing the way someone thinks introducing new information.
Wendy [19:12]: Right.
Karl [19:13]: If you’re not supposed to be selling to – to Rico – because he’s not supposed to, he’s not my customer, what should I be spending my time telling Rico?
Wendy [19:22]: Right. So, the book, The Secret Life of Pronouns is fabulous. The author is James Panabaker, he’s a University of Texas at Austin. And one of the things that he describes is how our use of pronouns affects how people react and respond to us. So the pronouns, “we” – this is what we do – and “you” – I can help you – are sales pronouns. And neuro linguistically they call them vertical. So these pronouns make people think – “I need this, I don’t need this. Yes, no, up, down, in, out. This is for me, this is not for me.” These pronouns – what an incredible power – stop referrals. Because when I’m speaking to Rico, and I say, “Well, Rico, what I can do for you is…” – Rico either thinks “Oh, I like that” or “No I don’t.” And then we’re done. He’s not thinking laterally, which is what neurolinguistics call the pronouns “I” and “they”. So when I’m speaking to Rico and I say – “What I did for them was…”, now Rico thinks what is like or what is not like what she’s talking about. So I was just talking with Heather, and she said, “I’m a good referral for your friends who have coffee table books of the places they’ve visited.” Well, immediately, when she said that, I thought – “Ooh, Kevin and Hal. They don’t have coffee table books from the places they’ve visited. They get some piece of art from every place they’ve been on vacation, and that’s their memento from the vacation.” Right? So that lateral thinking – it’s not a coffee table book – it’s a piece of art. That lateral thinking is how referral happen. And they happen with the pronouns, “This is what I did for them” – the person who’s not here. Not “This is what we can do for you,” the person who is here. And that’s key to referrals. Just key.
Rico [21:13]: You know, that’s funny. Because I’ve gotta believe that’s – as you were saying it – it’s almost like the case study.
Wendy [21:19]: Isn’t it?
Rico [21:20]: And everyone talks about – “I want to see the case study. I want to see what you did for someone else. Is that what you’re gonna do for me? Because we – you don’t even know me.”
Wendy [21:28]: Right! Right! And yet you’re pitching me? Yeah.
Rico [21:31]: Right. And I don’t do that. I hate doing that. I hate coming up with, I have a toolbox. I have a hammer and a screwdriver. I know you got nails and screws –
Wendy [21:40]: And now everything’s gonna be hammered.
Karl [21:43]: Even if you don’t need it, I’m gonna hit you.
Wendy [21:44]: Yeah, it’s what I got.
Rico [21:46]: So I need to know who you are first because you don’t even – you know, if at least I give you my case studies like that. What I did for them, then they might be able to step up and say and feel empathy. I understand.
Karl [21:56]: I just had an incident where what you just said happened, and now that I’m sensitized to it, I see it coming right at me. At a just a networking event or meeting some people, and someone selling, I think it was maybe employee benefits. And said – and she didn’t know anything about me. And she started saying, “Well, you know, I sell employee benefits and I can build us up, and if you have three to ninety-nine employees” and so on. And I said, “Wow.” She just went in and went from me to the next person and said the same thing to the next person and next person, next person. And I’m sitting there going, “why, I’d love to pull her aside for a moment and just have a short” –
Wendy [22:39]: Say, “Honey I can help you.”
Karl [22:41]: Which I am scheduling coffee with her, so we’re gonna have a conversation. But you see when folks do that a little bit different. There’s another thing –
Wendy [22:49]: I think that venturing to do that, thought, don’t you think? And they’ve just – what – and I remember the metaphor that I was taught was, you’re just picking up rocks and saying, “Is it you? Is it you? Is it you?” And it’s really uncomfortable to be one of those rocks.
Rico [23:01]: You know, when I was a stockbroker, it was like that. I got a stock, and I don’t care who you are, you’re gonna end up buying this stock from me, right? That’s the mentality of a lot of people have –
Wendy [23:11]: And we’re over it. We’re just over it.
Rico [23:13]: It doesn’t work that way.
Karl [23:15]: There’s this interesting thing that you introduced to me about the file cabinet and how to look at it. And I’ve used the ideas of it over the years – I didn’t realize – I used it in a different way, but it was a great way to organize your approach to it. But basically, offering insights. But when I have conversations with business owners – I’m not selling them a service. There’s information that I might have that could help them with their business. They may want to know evaluation, they may want to know how to increase marketing – whatever it is, I offer them insight to think differently about their business. That’s where I start. And then I can pivot from depending what they need, whether it’s a referral, what I can help them, whether they can help themselves. How do you use this filing cabinet now, do you help people organize that?
Wendy [24:04]: Right. So think of a four-drawer cabinet. You know, it’s about shoulder high, everybody has one, whether it’s in the garage or basement, they’ve got one, right? And the four drawers of the filing cabinet are the four things that people want when they come to us. So nobody wants peace of mind – they want car insurance or they want homeowners insurance, or they want umbrella insurance, or they want insurance on their motorcycle, right? They have something they want and it’s called insurance. Now, the name of the filing cabinet in this example is, “Insurance,” right? So if I’m an insurance agent and I go to a networking event, and I say, “I’m an insurance agent, so if you’ve got a home or a boat or a car I can help you.” People are either going to say, “Oh thanks I love my agent.” They’re not gonna talk to me because they feel pitched, right? Or they’re gonna say, and these are the only two options – or they’re gonna say, “Oh, I know a lot of insurance agents. Do you know Tommy Schlosser? Do you know – ” And they’re gonna start naming my competition. Well there’s no money for me if they’re talking about my competition. And there’s no money for me if they say, “Don’t need you.” And so naming the filing cabinet, starting the conversation by naming my filing cabinet, is automatic. It’s over, there’s no place to go. If instead, I name one of the drawers in my mind. Not out of my mouth, in my mind. So let’s just – in this example, let’s take homeowners. If in my mind, I say – I’m shaking hands with Rico – I say to myself, “I’m gonna play in homeowners.” And when he says, “Wendy, what do you do?” I open that homeowners drawer, and in that drawer, there’s thirty six different Pendaflex folders. There’s thirty-six different topics in that drawer that I can choose to talk about. Let’s say that I’m gonna talk about – let’s say we just had a hail storm. And I’m gonna talk about roof damage. Hail insurance for roof damage on a house. And I pull that topic out, and in that topic, there’s anywhere from six to eleven pieces of information that I could share. Let’s say that I decide to pull out the one file folder that has the information on the conversation to have with an insurance agent when there’s been hail damage, right? And I – Rico says to me, “What do you do?” And I say, “Well, yesterday I had a great conversation with a client who had hail damage to their rah-rah-rah, right?” Rico knows that – what the name of my filing cabinet is. And he knows what drawer we’re in, right? And he responds to me by saying, “Not interested in that, but what I wanted to know about is motorcycle because my 18-year-old just is looking at a motorcycle.” And I slam that homeowner’s drawer shut, I pull open the toys drawer, and now I’m talking to Rico about him in minute number two – I’m talking to Rico about him. He knows exactly what we do, and he thinks to me, “Ooh, that Wendy Kinney, she knows a lot. She knows more than my guys does. She’s telling me more than my guy has told me. I got people to send to her.”
Rico [27:03]: And it feels like that – that’s genuine. Because I think that people want – people are always asking questions about themselves. And if you’re coming in from the place where you’re selling to you, and they’re like, “I can pick a brand and I can share it – “
Wendy [27:18]: Yes – she’ll tell me!
Rico [27:20]: Yes, that’s a better way.
Wendy [27:22]: Now, this is why – you didn’t ask me this question. Ask me if there are words you shouldn’t use. So the word “depends” is an anti-referral word. We could do a whole cast on all the words not to use. The word “busy” is an anti-referral word, ask me about that later. Okay. But the word “depends” – so if someone says, “How much does that cost?” If I say, “Well, it depends…” they think I’m hiding something. And if I’m hiding something, I’m not credible. If I say, “it’s $137 for the customer who just bought it yesterday,” now, they’re like, “Ooh, I need that.” Or, they’re like, “I’m gonna have to save for that.” There’s never a value in me hiding the price. In sale – in referrals. In sales, what everybody who’s taken sales training is taught – first rule is, never address price until you’ve established value, right? Everything about referral marketing is the opposite. So in referral marketing, the first person to talk dollars wins. Every single time. And our fear is that they’ll think it’s too expensive. You know what? Thinking it’s too expensive – they were never gonna buy from us anyway!
Rico [28:27]: You know, you’re right. Because that’s not your client –
Wendy [28:30]: That’s not my client! That’s not my client! That’s not my best client!
Rico [28:34]: And you know, you qualified that too. You said, “Yesterday, for this client it was $137.” So that doesn’t mean it would be the same for me, so qualifying it –
Wendy [28:44]: And there – but you don’t have to qualify. There’s research on this. Let’s say that I say that it’s gonna be two thousand dollars, and you refer me to Carl, and for Carl it’s – and you say to Carl, “Hey, you need to talk to Wendy. It’s gonna be two grand.” And for Carl, it’s twenty-four hundred. Carl will think he’s special. He’ll think – “Oh, I’m better than the average bear.” Now, let’s say that for Carl, it’s 1700. Carl will think he got a deal because of you. Carl will think, “Ooh, that Rico – he did me good.” And he does all that himself. We don’t have to do it. So – there’s no downside to talking dollars if you’re doing referral marketing. No downside.
Karl [29:23]: I love that, and I started to adopt that because now I know attorneys and so on. And I start asking what they do – I wanna know fee. Give me a range.
Wendy [29:33]: Yeah, just tell me something!
Karl [29:34]: Because my conversation with someone – I’m not someone in legal services. They’re always gonna ask you about how much that’s gonna cost.
Wendy [29:43]: Right – what should I budget for that?
Karl [29:44]: And so I can establish the budget between two people, and that’s exactly what happened. I’ve gotta save for that, or now I gotta rethink the investment. But I can follow that out and say, “Well, let’s think about your situation. If you invest in this solution, three thousand or whatever it is, now, what is it saving you? What are the business benefits? Are you gonna get to take a vacation?” Whatever that benefit is, I’m talking in your language. I’ve almost pre-sold before I refer them to – they’re not – they’re gonna say, “well I know you’re gonna be in this range, and now it makes it easier for the person you’re doing, which accelerates referrals and business.
Wendy [30:22]: Yeah. There was another thing that you were addressing – I had a conversation with a woman who’s a state attorney and her basic – her basic – her bottom line is seven thousand. Now, I know another state attorney, whose average – not her lowest – her average is fifteen hundred, right? So the first woman is saying, “Oh, how am I gonna talk people into seven thousand?” You’re not gonna talk people into anything, right? You don’t gotta talk people into fifteen hundred or seven thousand. What’s gonna happen is, your best clients never think that seven thousand is out of line. Your best clients, and referral marketing is all about best clients – sometimes people say that they’re in a networking group for the low-hanging fruit. That is a mistake and it’s offensive. Your best clients will not be offended by your price. Which is the second reason to be clear with your price so that people can select in. Her best clients don’t want to pay fifteen hundred dollars. They want to buy a seven thousand dollar estate plan.
Rico [31:23]: Yeah the problem of that I think from the business side is, she shouldn’t want less than seven thousand. Because if you help to bring – if you’re pressed out to fifteen hundred, no one wins.
Wendy [31:33]: Nobody wins.
Rico [31:34]: That’s not your price range. It takes you –
Wendy [31:37]: She doesn’t want to take less than fifteen hundred. She wants to find out how to talk people who have fifteen hundred dollars into spending seven thousand. You can’t do it! Instead, go networking for the seven – for the people who want to spend seven thousand.
Karl [31:53]: Yeah. Perfectly, perfectly. Now, I know we could continue talking about it, and I think we’re – we’d love to have you back and just continue this conversation because I think you’ve shared a lot of good stuff. But I’m curious – what do you have going on? Or there’s, you know, how can people learn more about this stuff if they wanted to get in?
Wendy [32:15]: So the Power Core website is PowerCore.net as in networking. And at the top left, there’s a place where you can get the twenty-one types of associations. So if that is the first place that you’re thinking – what are my options? Is American Market Association an option for me? Go get that downloaded – the twenty-one types of associations. There are other places on the website where there is more information. And there’s also a list there for upcoming events. For example, in August, I’m doing a workshop on the filing cabinet. So that’s something that people can look at.
Karl [32:49]: And if somebody wanted to visit and just, you know, take a – take a look at someone, how many groups there are? How do they get connected and to explore the fit – this would be a fit for them?
Wendy [33:00]: Right. So the website is PowerCore.net. On the top left, there’s a little thing that says “New to Power Core” and they can put their information and find a team, and I’ll pick up the phone and call them. Or, my phone number is 404-816-3377. And the processes – everybody gets two visits. And that’s just to try on the jeans and say, do they fit? Are these for me?
Karl [33:21]: Oh, fabulous. I just want to thank you very much for coming out, sharing some of this knowledge. I think anyone that listens today can take something away from it and change their approach, tweak their approach, and see immediate benefit. If they want to learn more, there are a lot of resources out there. There is BNI, there is Power Core. But be intentional about how you use network and relational marketing to grow your business. And there’s just a lot of opportunity. So thank you today for sharing that advice with us today. We’d also like to thank Atlanta Tech Park for hosting the Capitalist Sage Podcast here in Peachtree Corners. Great space for people to come, meet other entrepreneurs, other business owners. It is the hub of business in Peachtree Corners in southwest Guinnett, the Southwest Gwinnett Chamber if Commerce is headquartered here as well. What about other sponsors?
Rico [34:17]: Yeah the sponsors include as we said before, Gwinnett Medical Center, which is entering Peachtree Corners. If you want to find more information, it’s GuinnettMedicalCenter.org/PTC. And they’re gonna provide first-rate primary care, specialty services. So that’s our main sponsor off there. And Smart City Expo Atlanta –
Karl [34:39]: Looking forward to that coming up soon.
Rico [34:41]: September 11th is its first day. It’s gonna be a great event. And if you’re into or want to know more about technology, ILT, Smart City – if you are smart, if you are a company that’s in sustainable or smart areas, technology – that’s the place to be.
Karl [34:57]: Absolutely. All those ILT companies out there. It’s definitely a place to be. I’m Karl Barham with Transworld Business Advisors. We help people find the right buyers for their business. We help them find the right businesses to invest in and just offer them general advice. Think of us as one of your – your board members that just helps advise you on decisions you make to help you with your business. And Rico –
Rico [35:25]: Sure – I do a few things. I wear a lot of different hats. So – I’m publisher of Peachtree Corners Magazine, which is a bi-monthly publication for the city of Peachtree Corners. Our next issue is gonna hit the post-office Friday. Its cover story is about the movie industry in and around Peachtree Corners, along with some other great stories. One is about the boyscouts, another one is about a local – one of the local, five – of five swim teams that just won the Gwinnett Championship. That’s fun. So there’s a bunch of things in there, so visit livinginpeachtreecorners.com or Peachtree Corners Life’s Facebook page and you’ll get more info there. And I have a company called Mighty Rockets. MightyRockets.com – you can find a little bit about what I do. I do a variety of things – product videos, social media, online content, and anything that’s in the creative realm. So –
Karl [36:18]: And you’re fabulous. If you haven’t seen the Peachtree Corner magazine – it’s been well received. It’s a beautiful publication. Keeps you up to date on what’s going on around the city. And just really interesting stories about people. People stop – they go on the internet for everything, and we have something you can pick up and read and talk to your neighbor about. So, thank you for that.
Rico [36:44]: And just one more thing – my daughter’s been behind the camera today. Thank you Kinsey.
Karl [36:50]: Thank you Kinsey for joining us. So that’s it from the Capitalist Sage Podcast. Stay tuned. We’ll have more interesting guests that come in and help you find ways to improve your business. Thank you. Karl Barham, signing off.
Capitalist Sage: Beth B. Moore, Bridging the Artist and Business [Podcast]
When it comes to the entertainment industry, there’s still a lot of trade secrets. Beth B. Moore is here to explain some of the trickiest and most useful laws within the entertainment industry. In this episode of the Capitalist Sage, we join Rico, Karl, and Beth as they discuss entertainment law, emerging trends, the film and music industry, Georgia legislation and more.
https://www.vividip.com Facebook: Beth B. Moore, Entertainment Lawyer
“I really find interesting the intersection of business, art, and law. And so where I am in my career allows me to explore that unique intersection. You know at some point in my adult life trying to figure out what I want to be when I grow up. I realized that you know aside from friends and family some of the most important things to me in my life was music and art.”Beth b. moore
Karl: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Capitalist Sage podcast. We’re here to bring you advice and tips from seasoned pros and experts to help you improve your business. I’m Karl Barham with TransWorld Business Advisors. And my co-host is Rico Figliolini with Mighty Rockets Digital Marketing and the publisher of the Peachtree Corners Magazine Hey, Rico, how are you doing today?
Rico: [00:00:54] Hey Karl, I’m good, thanks.
Karl: [00:00:56] Ah today is Halloween. So we have a lot of trick-or-treaters going out tonight. Hopefully if the rain cooperates, why don’t we introduce some of our sponsors today?
Rico: [00:01:07] Sure, a scary Halloween day we’re going to be, there’s actually. The scary thing going on for some startups because they’re going to have an opportunity to do a three-minute pitch. Five startups on November 14th its going to be part of the North Atlanta Tech showcase.
Karl: [00:01:23] That’s right.
Rico: [00:01:24] And that’s here at Atlanta Tech Park. That’s sponsoring us. This is the podcast room from that location. A partnership Gwinnett is putting this on and there’s going to be five, actually, nine startups doing a three-minute pitch to others, to investors and other people within the industry. And that’s going to be scary for them because they got three minutes. It’s worse than the Shark Tank at least, at least in Shark Tank you had like, I don’t know 15-20 minutes. Here it’s only three minutes to make that pitch. So, but Atlanta Tech Park is the place they’re doing it. This is a phenomenal here in Peachtree Corners. It’s a great place along the track of the autonomous vehicle.
Karl: [00:02:01] Right here in curiosity lab right here in Peachtree Corners Atlanta tech park being a home for entrepreneurs. Tech, tech startup companies so it’ll be great to see those come in. And if you’re interested check out the website you could, you could register come visit that day and see some of the future entrepreneurs of right here in Gwinnett County. At the Showcase.
Rico: [00:02:24] PartnershipGwinnett.com or AtlantaTechPark.com will take you there.
Karl: [00:02:28] So we’re glad to have Atlanta Tech Park as our home for for the podcast and we’re especially glad today to have a fabulous guest. Bethany Moore. She’s in a an attorney that specializes in entertainment law and intellectual properties. And today we wanted to talk to those folks out there that have lots of creative talents and their endeavors takes them into both entertainment and artistry and look at the business side of those types of careers and businesses. I know we speak a lot about the the talent that people have. But they may not realize that they are also a business and we figured, let’s chat about that some and Beth was more than gracious to come and spend some time and talk to us about that. Hi Beth how’re you doing today?
Beth: [00:03:15] Hi. I’m doing great. Thank you for having me out on this fun and festive Halloween Day.
Karl: [00:03:20] Absolutely fabulous that. To get to explore a, you know on Halloween. There’s a lot of artistry that goes around this holiday season typically, but I’d like to start off by, you know, I’m curious how you got into this particular area and field of law when you got started.
Beth: [00:03:40] Sure. Well, you know, I consider myself an entertainment attorney and that does include, you know clients who work in the music industry, film, television, book publishing, theater. Really anything and everything involving the creative arts. I like to tell people I get to have the most fun a lawyer is allowed to have. You know, and it is a lot of fun, but it’s also a lot of work and there are serious legal considerations when it comes to working in the entertainment industry. I really find interesting the intersection of business, art, and law. And so where I, where I am in my career allows me to explore that unique intersection. You know at some point in my adult life trying to figure out what I want to be when I grow up. I realized that you know aside from friends and family some of the most important things to me in my life was music and art. You know, there’s, there’s really a historical reason for the significance of music and art if you look back on the development of humankind, you know these things, you know, we developed along with music and art. You take a trip to Europe. What do you do? You go to the art museums you take in the local culture, the music, the architecture. So, you know, this has been a common thread throughout the entire life cycle of humankind and it’s something that I take very seriously and it just means a whole lot to me as a person.
Karl: [00:05:05] I always wonder when we think about that some people may not realize. That they’re in this creative art. I mean, I think it’s obvious musicians and it’s obvious maybe people that are in theater or actors and so on. When you talk to clients and folks that are in it, what are some of the other fields that people may not realize falls into these creative arts that where the electrical property and so on becomes really important?
Beth: [00:05:34] The beautiful thing is that art is everywhere. It’s everywhere. You can take any business that may be operating, you know with a logo and a trademark, you know, that’s you know, a common thread among all businesses regardless of what type of Industry you’re in starts with the copyright involved in the you know, any kind of unique image being used as a logo. And then there’s always you know the application to obtain a federally recognized trademark. That’s also part of what I do. And I can really do that for any business. But I specifically focus on those services for clients in the entertainment industry. You know art is you know is a consideration in an industry as large as advertising. You know, I’ve had to work with a lot of advertising companies to make sure that the artwork they want to use or the music that they may, you know that they may use in their television commercials that all of those are cleared and legally cleared to use. So considerations of intellectual property are everywhere and it’s certainly especially in the entertainment industry.
Karl: [00:06:40] If you think of it from the side of the artist that’s producing that. What are things where you’ve seen people they may call you after the fact where they make mistakes or things they didn’t know as they’re producing and creating art and starting to share? What are some of the things that you the mistakes people make along the way?
Beth: [00:06:57] How much time you got? So, you know the music industry it, which is really my true specialty even within the umbrella of the entertainment industry. You know music is one of those things where it’s it feels good, you know, I mean, it’s a creative outlet for a lot of people. You know, they may not be thinking about making a career out of it. You know, everybody has to start somewhere and usually means starting out. As a hobby. You know, you pick up a guitar or you find a keyboard at the Goodwill and you know, you start making music that’s a beautiful thing. You know, I hope that all children and even adults get a chance to explore, you know, their inner musician. I think what naturally happens is for a certain group of people that that hobby progresses into a profession. They’re like hey, I’m actually pretty good at this and people like what I’m making, you know, maybe I can spend all of my waking hours making music and you know earn some money from it and make a living doing it. So I find that that transition can be really challenging for a lot of Music Makers. You know, primarily because if you’re, if all you’re doing is making music then chances are you may not have a big enough budget to hire an attorney, but by entering into this space without proper understanding of legal underpinnings of it and without having a legal advocates tell you what your rights are people end up, you know giving away their music for free. You know in a way that does not advance their career. They end up getting taken advantage of you know, by people who know just enough to be dangerous and to cut you out of the equation.
Rico: [00:08:35] Let me ask you, what are two or three things that the musician should know right off the bat that they should do to help protect themselves? If they wrote a piece and they’re playing it but they’re not disseminating a jet. Short of YouTube Instagram putting out the music, what two or three things should they be doing to make sure it’s protected and someone else can’t use it?
Beth: [00:09:00] So there’s a couple of things that come to mind, you know first is having a firm understanding of the legal term copyright, you know, this is a term that a lot of people throw around thinking they know what it means and most people don’t. You know, one of the most important things to understand about copyright is that you know, if you are creating an original work of art and it’s tangible, in other words it exists in some way shape or form on this Earth other than just in your human mind, then you own a copyright to that work the moment it’s created. You do not have to file a federal copyright, certainly a good idea to, but you have rights in and to your work the moment you birth it into the world.
Rico: [00:09:40] So if I wrote a song and I put it out there on Instagram or Facebook, that’s tangible, right?
Beth: [00:09:46] Yeah.
Rico: [00:09:46] I mean, that’s a recording. That’s right out there.
Beth: [00:09:48] That digital file on your computer or more perhaps on your phone is a tangible embodiment of your work, right? And you have rights to that just as you know, everybody else has rights to their work. So be careful whose work you try to pass off as your own because those whoever created that work has rights to it. So that’s maybe the second mistake that people make is they see rampant copyright infringement happening out there in the world which gives a lot of people the false impression that it’s okay when it is not. You can get yourself into a lot of hot water, you know, if you try to sample somebody else’s work and if you misappropriate somebody’s work, you know, if you think I’ll just slide in this sample real quick and nobody will notice because it’s under five seconds. That’s not how the law works.
Rico: [00:10:34] Because cover bands work. Those cover bands are out there playing other people’s music, I mean.
Beth: [00:10:40] There is a precise answer to that which is that the people who wrote the songs that the cover band, you know is covering have granted a license to what are called The Performing rights organizations, which then turn around and Grant a license to the restaurants and venues. Of course, the restaurants and venues have to pay for that license but once they have it they’re allowed to play any song that they want.
Karl: [00:11:03] Let me if I can just understand and clear, a business owner and they are playing music in the background of whatever that store is. Do they have to either they have to pay for the right to play the song in their place of Commerce no matter what type? If it’s a doctor’s office playing the elevator music is that all covered?
Beth: [00:11:27] Yes, absolutely. Now, I have counseled business owners including restaurant owners about this where you know, they just want to play the radio in the background or they’ve you know, they have a Spotify account and they wonder why can’t I just play this? Well, it’s because the people who wrote those songs own the copyright of those songs and what those business owners are effectively doing is using somebody elses copyright to sell coffee or to sell golf club, right? And if you’re going to do that, you should you know, you should have to pay the person that’s helping you create this commercial atmosphere that draws in customers and they do.
Rico: [00:12:01] That’s funny because I’m, as she’s saying that I’m thinking starbucks and I’m thinking of those little music cards they used to have at one point with musicians on there of that they would be playing. And I think they, that was sort of a give and take a little bit on their part to be able to play music in the background of some of the bands that they were promoting and Starbucks music in house. Then I thought about the Jukebox. Real time, you know, slide the quarter in this. After that went away, I think that’s when royalty would really like going.
Karl: [00:12:29] So in Rico’s initial example, he creates a piece of music and he puts it on YouTube and if I were to find it in a business and start playing the music on YouTube is the, should he do something to make sure that his rights are protected. 1 and 2, he may be able to be compensated. What should he do?
Beth: [00:12:53] Yes. So as a songwriter Rico, what I would advise you to do is to join one of the
Performing rights organizations and in the United States, we have three. ASCAP, BMI and SESAC. When you do that as a songwriter, you know in some ways, you know that helps to, you know, memorialize or put the public on notice that you are the author of that song. You are the creator, the owner. You know and so you can look up right now anybody out there listening can go to one of those three websites and look up their favorite song and find out who the actual writers are. You might be surprised, right? Because the person that you think wrote the song might not be the person who actually did. And so, that’s what you would do as a songwriter you would affiliate with one of those three organizations and in turn those organizations will represent you. When a restaurant owner comes to them wanting to play music. So the organization let’s say you joined ASCAP. ASCAP will issue a license, right? A license is just a fancy word for granting someone permission. ASCAP will license the right to the restaurant owner to be able to play any song in the ASCAP catalog that they want and your song will be listed in the ASCAP catalog.
Rico: [00:14:10] So you’d just pay one royalty or monthly fee or whatever it is. You can play any song within that set up.
Beth: [00:14:16] Exactly. Yes. It’s usually an annual fee. Yes, and the restaurant owner would do well to seek out licenses from all three organizations because chances are any song you want to play is going to be represented by one of those three.
Rico: [00:14:28] I guess muzak came out at some point to avoid all that right? Because it’s regular, it’s like a synthesized music has nothing to do with any copyright at all.
Beth: [00:14:40] It actually ties in perfectly with what I’m talking about because what Muzak did if I understand correctly is they had their licensing fees built in with the PRO fees right, so it was kind of a digital service that delivered the recordings but also included the permissions for the underlying compositions.
Rico: [00:15:01] Okay, so it’s all in one place and that’s why you could use Muzak anywhere.
Beth: [00:15:05] Yeah, and you know, it’s Spotify and Pandora,I believe, have commercial subscriptions now for places of business. So you can get licenses for everything all in one place.
Rico: [00:15:16] So when you play Apple music, you pay an apple fee every month for my Apple music. I can play any song, download any song within the Apple Library. That’s, which seems to be almost every song in the world. But so I’m not paying anything more than that monthly fee, right?
Beth: [00:15:33] Well you’re talking about personal consumption.
Rico: [00:15:35] Yes.
Beth: [00:15:36] So that’s different. Very, very different from commercial consumption.
Karl: [00:15:40] So if you’re a business owner, you may have a personal Spotify, Apple music, Amazon account that allows you to play all the music. But when you bring that into your business, and you’re using it within your business, you’d have to get this additional license to do that.
Beth: [00:15:59] Correct. It’s called a public performance license not to be confused with live performance. It has nothing to do with live performance. Public performance means that somebody’s music, specifically somebody’s composition, is being performed in a public space. A place of public accommodation. Which commercial places are, right? You know Starbucks is open to the public. Target is open to the public. Airports are open to the public. All of those places that want to play music in a public space, has to obtain a public performance license.
Rico: [00:16:32] Content sent to the plant.
Karl: [00:16:34] So with all that would Rico get paid then, from that the group that he’s a member of, that he’s paying some fees to.
Rico: [00:16:42] The bottom line.
Karl: [00:16:43] The bottom, he would then get paid for some percentage. How’s that done?
Beth: [00:16:49] Yes. So there’s two royalties, you know, depending on the situation. One royalty may be available for the recording artist. So that might be the person, you know, whose voice you actually hear, you know whose guitar riffs you were actually hearing. But there’s a
separate designation for who the songwriter is, right? So in this case Rico being the songwriter, yes, he would be in a position to earn royalties. From you know for every time you know Starbucks or Target or the airport you know played his music. The algorithm by which an organization like ASCAP uses to determine how much you get paid is a trade secret. We don’t actually know but we can surmise that it at least has something to do with how much of the real estate of the airwaves, you know, you occupy. The more your song gets played the more royalties you’ll receive.
Karl: [00:17:43] That’s very very interesting. Does it expand out beyond music? So if let’s take writings, and now we get digital media. People are putting out cat stuff on YouTube and creating funny videos, cartoon videos, explainer videos. Are all of those…
Rico: [00:18:01] Or even doing a public service where the news media recording a crime just happening and then they sell it to CNN. I mean, do they have copy right on those things?
Beth: [00:18:11] Yes, yes. And if any kind of original creative content you that you birth into the world belongs to you. And that would include, you know, silly cat videos. You know, it may just be something that you created at home. You probably have hours and hours worth of cat videos, but you have that one little clip where they did something funny. That piece of video, that audio-visual work contains a copyright. And the owner of that copyright is the person who created it.
Karl: [00:18:37] And there’s, there isn’t a similar organization for video, for writers, for all these different creative types of art. There’s a similar organization that manages that for them as well?
Beth: [00:18:52] No, but that would, that sounds like a wonderful idea. Right now, it’s really, you know, if I have a silly cat video and you want to use it, you know, for the Peachtree Corners podcast, then we would do an arm’s length transaction. You know, for what that licensing deal would be. Whether you pay me or I simply agree to grant you, you know royalty free license. Right now that’s something where you would have to approach the copyright holder directly to get that, get that permission.
Rico: [00:19:19] There are protections in place. And although there was, I was involved in a website that was done once and we used stock photo as position only. Because eventually we’re going to remove the stock photo, put real photos on there. Two years later a lawyer reaches out and said that there’s a stock photo on that site you never purchased. How did they know it was never purchased, I don’t know. But they wanted their fee and they wanted it removed. But they wanted their fee at least to be paid. So there are protections, at least the free market allows protection in place for some things, right?
Beth: [00:19:53] Well, you just perfectly identified one of the issues that modern-day content creators are facing. Is that, and it kind of goes back to the question you asked earlier, what’s one of the mistakes that people make in this industry? And its really disseminating, you know, their content without thought as to how to control it. You know, it’s like once something is out there it’s darn near impossible to retract it, right? So we have had to as an industry get really creative in how we monitor, you know, the use of our content. You know, make sure that anybody who is the recipient of a license that they stay within the confines of that license, right? So there are guard rails you can do this, but it doesn’t mean you can do that. And so there are little bots that you can put out into the internet to find out, you know, where did this Photograph go, right? And there are, certainly there are ways to get around that you know, but there are really sophisticated ways in which attorneys, you know and firms that represent content creators can track the usage of that content around the internet. I’d really like to see a more uniformed system to make that happen. I think that maybe blockchain might reveal some of the ways in which we can do that, but that’s maybe a future development.
Karl: [00:21:11] I mean you’re trying to tap into something that it seems an interesting area of policy, government policy. So you’re also part of the Georgia sledded legislature representing, the district is 1995 here. Are there legislations that’s happening locally or federally to help corral what’s happening in this area. Especially with the internet because I see so much content being generated and I haven’t, I can’t imagine how someone could begin to manage and regulate all of that.
Beth: [00:21:56] I think when it comes to managing your content and policing it, you know, I think one of the most important things anybody can do is just first to understand what your rights are. Hopefully they’re listening to your podcast today and they’re starting to pick up on the importance of this. As far as legislation goes, you know, we’re very fortunate in Georgia that about 10-12 years ago. We passed the, what is shorthand called the Georgia film tax credit, you know, which has been a great development for our state to attract the film business here. You know that is an engine of content creation, which has really been great. And so, you know down at the Capitol we’re certainly always, you know, in defense mode of that tax credit. You know, I think that it has so many benefits that we can’t even really measure. That really, that played a
very important role in my decision to get involved in public policy and to run for office. You know, I did not get into politics through politics. I got into it through the Arts and entertainment industry because I see firsthand how smart state policy can really shape an entire industry and change lives. You know, bringing thousands of new job opportunities to Georgians and helping to develop a generation that has grown up with film and creativity and appreciation for the Arts right here in our own backyard. Georgia has a good history of you know of legendary music and I’m glad to see that happening now in the film industry. I bring up the film tax credit because there is a bill that has been proposed to create, well I should say a couple of years ago, they did pass what is shorthand known as the music tax credit. To essentially grant the music industry some of the same benefits that we granted to the film industry and to try to make sure we have more film business here. We certainly have a lot of talent in Atlanta, but anybody who’s been around the music industry in Atlanta will tell you that we lack some of the upper echelons of the business here. Which you know that like a lot of the record labels that used to be here have left or folded or just gone under. And so, you know, there’s lots that can be done to incentivize, you know music touring. That touring should originate in Georgia because that generates lots and lots of jobs. So they did pass a version of that bill before I arrived in the legislature. There are some issues with that bill. For example, it does provide some tax credits just like the film tax credit. The difference is in under that music legislation, those tax credits are not transferable. The transferability of those tax credits is key.
Rico: [00:24:47] Transferable between businesses if they were purchased?
Beth: [00:24:49] Correct. Because the concept of a tax credit is that it gets applied to your next project, right? So, you know, so some film companies may come here, make a film, they get the tax credit. Well, that has value. They can actually sell those tax credits to another company so that they can actually receive text benefit if that Film Production Company doesn’t otherwise have another project going on, right? And so the same could be true of the music tax credit. We created this incentive for production companies and for touring companies to bring their business to Georgia, but we did not make them transferable. And that makes…
Rico: [00:25:29] Why did they? I mean, is there an another rationale that if it’s transferable maybe that business doesn’t come to Georgia? I mean is there a reason why?
Beth: [00:25:38] You’ll have to ask the legislators who were there before me. But my understanding is that there was some hesitation about the bill to begin with so they thought well, let’s just get something on the books and we’ll fix it later. But we’re now in the Fix-It phase. But we have encountered some pushback there even though I do think that these are, these are common-sense changes that have bipartisan support. And I really want to encourage the the Arts entertainment working group who currently is vetting that bill to favorably pass it out of their committee. So it can go to ways and means.
Rico: [00:26:14] Can I ask you about the trends as far as the movie industry goes? Because there’s always that talk that those credits will go away. And people are fearful of that because then if that goes away, where’s all the production go? You know, that’s what happened to I think it was South Carolina?
Beth: [00:26:28] North Carolina.
Rico: [00:26:30] Where they nixed it. And then a lot of their industry just went away.
Karl: [00:26:33] They came to Georgia.
Rico: [00:26:35] Yeah, which was good for us now. But there’s still talk, I think when Kim came in there was some talk at some point. About his campaign about him wanting to do that, about removing that text printed. Do you see any trends there heading that way?
Beth: [00:26:48] You know every public statement that I’ve heard Kim say suggest that he is in support of continuing that tax credit. You know, some of his administration’s actions this year would suggest that maybe they don’t covet the film industry as much as I wish he did. You know because everything kind of works in an ecosystem, you change one thing about Georgia law that has an impact on other areas. And I have serious concerns about things like HP 481, the anti-abortion bill, you know. Which you know, a lot of people don’t want that here in Georgia. They think it is anti-business. And the film industry for the most part agrees with that but I don’t want to make a blanket statement about the film industry there’s certainly, you know, a multitude of political beliefs and affiliation within the film industry itself. You know, so one of the challenges that we have with the film tax credit, the reason we always have to play defense on it, is because if you look at pure numbers, you see how much the tax credit quote-unquote costs in terms of lost revenue and you might see well that certainly is a lot of revenue that we’re losing. You know, you might question are we even breaking even on that? Is there a return on that investment? And I think it’s really hard to measure that because if you do away with the film tax credit all of that production business goes away, right? There’s, I mean and to me that would be a much larger hit to our state’s economy than if you just looked at how much the tax credit costs in terms of real dollars.
Karl: [00:28:15] I could echo that and I see it. All of the film business that moved into, Georgia generates additional dollars in support. If you look at from a real estate standpoint, AirBnB, since the film industry come and has taken off people that are investors in that part of the economy. All these folks need to be fed. So restaurants catering food, they need signage, they need support. But what I think is really, really understated is the longer the film industry exists here in Georgia. We’re building another generation of folks that are supportive of the Arts, skilled in the arts, able to create films which are jobs. Businesses tied around this other industry. If you look at what it did for California, how many people that live in California are artists are coming in there because the option is there. In New York City to film all where theater is really big and film, there’s a lot of artists that live and support and businesses that go there. It could be short-sighted to look at that how it impacts the other parts of the economy when you look at that. But I see small business owners that generate a lot of business from supporting the film studios here in Gwinnett County. There’s at least three of them that I know of that are driving economic activity. But I see young people choosing career paths that weren’t available 25 years ago before that was here.
Rico: [00:29:49] That’s right.
Beth: [00:29:50] Yeah, I think you nailed it. You know, I’ll add a couple of more long-term views to this. You know, one of the things I love about the film industry is that it has relatively low environmental impact, right? You know people come in, they make a production, they don’t leave a permanent footprint with one exception. That you know, it can sometimes create a lasting legacy for some of these locations. For example, Rabun County, you know 30-40 years later is still known as the birthplace of Deliverance. And it’s kind of a local draw, right? Yeah and Senoia Georgia, home of the Walking Dead. I mean, you know, this generates you know additional ongoing opportunities in terms of film tourism. You know, I can draw some of those hardcore fans to locations like that. So I think there’s all kinds of benefits, you know. And another one is a lot of people don’t realize that Atlanta is a hotbed of advertising as well. The advertising community in Georgia is incredibly robust. Well, if you think about you know, the life cycle of a film or television show it’s short-term. You have people with these amazing talents in terms of on-screen Talent or behind the screen. You know in front of the camera, you know Gaffers, lighting, sound, all of that. Well when they’re not working on a film and television production a lot of those guys work in advertising, right? So, you know to have those two industries able to kind of coexist side-by-side strengthens both of them.
Karl: [00:31:25] Have a friend that’s a camera, Steadicam operator and he does films and so on. But in between jobs, he does a lot for commercials, advertising. But that would be harder to find folks like him if the industry didn’t start generating the skill set in this capability within the market here.
Rico: [00:31:46] It took it took a decade, right?
Karl: [00:31:47] Yeah.
Rico: [00:31:48] I mean there was hardly any, just creating props for film sites, or electricians, or woodworkers, or HV AC, or you know, I mean those. As much as we have that industry room to build that infrastructure for the film industry is taking a decade to get there.
Karl: [00:32:06] So I’m curious. I know these arts start when you’re young. Entertainment, whether it can be Sports, it could be music and art. And there’s parents out there that have no real knowledge of how to guide and advise there. What would be some places where parents and people starting out in the business can start to educate themselves? One, about the rights that you mentioned about that they have but really, you know, understanding what are some of the things they need to start putting in place as they’re starting to develop these talents and start putting it out there. Where can they learn more about that?
Beth: [00:32:40] Well, they can certainly come see me. It actually is quite common that when I am representing somebody who’s maybe a legal minor or you know is still very young, you know, the 18 to 21 range. That their parents will take, you know, almost an ownership stake in their career. It’s kind of, entertainment is kind of unique in that way. You know, if you go off and become a scientist or a lawyer your parents don’t usually get involved. But when it comes to entertainment, it’s arguably a good idea. Because so many people do get taken advantage of and if you know if your child is getting involved in film and television or music, you know, they really need somebody that they can trust to look out for their best interests until the day when they can fully you know, understand and appreciate the legal complexities of what they’re doing. You know, certainly a minor child cannot enter into a contract without their parents consent. There are all kinds of labor laws, you know for minor children on film sets. So I think there’s a lot that parents can do to. First encourage their children to explore the Arts. You know, it’s okay to you know, just you know to make mistakes. It’s okay to just experiment, you know, whether it’s with some kind of visual media or with film and television. I remember my parents have always had a video camera around and so, you know, that’s where I kind of got started in high school was we’d have a class project and I would make it a film. I still have those, by the way. And you know, it’s little things like that that just kind of build up over time and it ultimately impacts the career decisions that your child makes. So, you know I’ll throw out a pitch for myself if you want legal advise parents, you are welcome to come in to be an advocate for your child. You know, you can always in place of your minor child join some of the professional organizations that exist in Atlanta and around the country for various professions. So for example, the music industry,
we have the recording Academy, otherwise known as the Grammys, right? That’s a great networking opportunity, great networking organization. But they also do a lot of educational panels. There are equivalents in the the film industry. Its Georgia Production Partners is one that comes to mind. The Atlanta Film Society puts on the Atlanta film festival and they do a lot of Education Workshops. Yeah, you know if your child is into gaming there’s a Georgia game developers Association there. There’s a lot of parent can do you know to encourage their child and to protect them. And even one of the best things that a parent can do is just to you know, while their child is having fun creating, you know art. You know, if it seems like they’re moving in a direction of that becoming their profession, you know, it’s never too early to start talking with your child about what it means to have a business. You know, what it means to turn their art, you know into money. What it means to make a living in the entertainment industry because there’s not a lot of people that are in a position to have that conversation with artists and I really wish artists had the opportunity to have that conversation more often.
Karl: [00:35:59] I’m curious. Did you play many instruments or do music or what was your art of passion growing up?
Beth: [00:36:06] I played clarinet in sixth grade band. And I play just enough piano to get by but I actually don’t have very, you know, a whole lot of musical talent myself. Which is partly why I do what I do because I very much wanted to be involved in the Arts and entertainment industry but I had basically no artistic talent myself. So I thought well, what’s the next hardest thing I can do. And I thought well, I’ve always you know, I’ve always been good at school. I will go to law school and become an advocate for people in the Arts and entertainment industry.
Karl: [00:36:42] Oh, that’s fabulous. I know I was talking to someone a couple weeks ago and they create music on their laptops like so many people do. He does it for fun. And he spends hours and I could think of how many kids do that today.
Rico: [00:37:00] The software on there you can do your own beats, doing all sorts of stuff.
Karl: [00:37:04] They’re doing their own videos and so on but that conversation are early on, you know with their parents on starting to think about the business side of what they’re producing is an opportunity that could guide them. Because when they’re making choices under it’s fun and it’s a game for them when you’re younger, but some of them have some talent and starting to think about putting those things in whether it’s joining the organization, you mentioned. Having a conversation with an attorney that specializes in this so they can make the right choices early on. I always feel once their talent explodes all of a sudden everyone’s grabbing for pieces of it and they’re not prepared in those first few deals or the first few meetings they have. They’re not equipped to understand their rights and how to do that, so.
Rico: [00:37:55] You know, it’s funny because it’s some Industries like acting right to you do have an agent. You have to have an agent to be able to close a deal on an acting gig with the company, right? So some Industries you have some protection you still need a lawyer though everything right?
Karl: [00:38:09] Absolutely. Well, I really want to thank you. You’ve given us a lot to share with folks that are starting to look at these creative arts and understand the business side. But just curious, you know, do you have anything coming up or things that are coming up as we’re getting late into the running out the final part of the year. Anything that you’ve got going on?
Beth: [00:38:34] So a couple of things. You know between now and the end of the year and before the next legislative session starts is I’ve been doing a lot of outreach with some of the larger film studios in town. We just toured Eagle Rock studios in Norcross the other week. I actually have a friend who works there and he was excited about me running for office and he knew what I did for a living and said hey why don’t you come down to the studio. So we finally made that happen. It’s an amazing operation that they have going on and you wouldn’t even know it. It just sits in the, in a quiet industrial park in Norcross. So we’re, going to be touring Black Hole in a couple of weeks. We’re waiting to hear back from a couple of Studios. I mostly want some of these studios around town to know that they have an advocate at the state house, right? You know, I am the only legislator in Georgia, the only elected official who actually works in the entertainment industry. It’s a topic that a lot of people down at the Capitol like to talk about but I actually bring that professional experience to the table. Beyond that we have the Esports Summit coming up, you know, this is kind of a new tangential area of the entertainment industry that has really excited me and fascinated me and I’m looking to get more involved in the game industry here. So I will be at the Esports Summit. It’s kind of adjacent to Dreamhack which is coming up and…
Rico: [00:40:02] It’s running at about the same time.
Beth: [00:40:04] Yeah, it’s a first it’s the Esports Summit and then kind of leads directly into Dreamhack. So it’s that weekend of November 14th through the 17th.
Rico: [00:40:11] The public’s allowed into dreamhack. So, I mean that’s a great place to go if you’re into gaming I mean it’s phenomenal. Thousands of gamers go in there.
Beth: [00:40:20] It is. It has become the largest Sports industry, you know, eclipsing all of the others. It’s remarkable and I just, I know there’s a lot of young people there and I want to make sure that when they enter into contracts with some of these teams or they enter into some of these contests that they have protection. So I’ll be at that event and I look forward to hopefully meeting some people there. You know, my office is here at Atlanta Tech Park, so I’m not here every day, but if anybody’s up here at the park, feel free to seek me out. I’d love to chat with you.
Rico: [00:40:53] They can find you on Facebook at Beth Moore Entertainment Lawyer.
Beth: [00:40:57] Beth B. Moore simple. Yeah, I do include my middle name. There is another famous Beth Moore out there. So I have to distinguish myself. But yes, I do have a Facebook page where I post a lot of helpful articles kind of introducing folks to some you know, some basic legal concepts to help them along the way. I have a Instagram account and Twitter account. So you can find me there at BethBMoore.
Karl: [00:41:23] I’d love to share some of that stuff as we talked to business owners and a lot of folks that are thinking about their kids especially, you mentioned Esports. I could imagine how many, kids are trying to convince their parents that there’s a, my career and future in that. But they’re actually not lying. It is actually true to do that. But I think getting education and knowledge out there for folk, getting them in touch with folks like yourself to begin to protect them early on and even incorporating building a business around what they do is really important for them to think about that from the beginning. But we want to thank our guest Beth Moore attorney specializing in entertainment law and intellectual property and she’s also our local Georgia State Representative. You can reach her on various methods both online and here at Atlanta Tech Park. And really thank you for sharing some of these tips and highlighting an industry that’s so large globally, but when it comes from the business side, no one really is talking, exposing and starting to get educated on this. And this is a great first step. So we’d love having you back in and continue the conversation as time goes on. We also want to thank Atlanta Tech Park for hosting the Capitalist Sage podcast. If you’re starting a business and looking for a great place, environment to work, where you can get to meet people from diverse backgrounds, technology, entertainment, law, government. It’s a great place to build community. And so you can start by attending an event at Atlanta Tech Park and Peachtree Corners. If you like what you see schedule yourself a tour and find yourself a home to build your business. I’m Karl Barham with Transworld business advisors in Atlanta Peachtree. Our business advisors are able to help consult whether it’s you’re starting a business or thinking about starting a business. You’re in business and trying to grow it or you’re trying to exit the business and find a buyer. Our team of consultants help people through each phase of that process and Rico.
Rico: [00:43:28] Yes?
Karl: [00:43:29] What’ve you got going on?
Rico: [00:43:30] I have a lot of things going on with many different hats all just pouring down. I’m a publisher of Peachtree Corners magazine. And if you haven’t seen it already. This is the last latest issue that’s come out.
Karl: [00:43:42] Great episode. Another another great issue.
Rico: [00:43:45] Thank you. Thank you. The next one is 20 under 20. Some of the best kids in Peachtree Corners are going to be highlighted that have either impacted the city or their family. Or have done something great in sports, entertainment, science. So we’re going to be doing that a major a cover story for the next issue that’s coming out. Just the end, just before
Thanksgiving. So we’re going to be doing that. As far as Mighty Rockets what I do, my day job, when I’m not doing the publishing part is that I do all sorts of content Marketing Online for companies. Lately I’ve been doing, done a few stop motion animation videos for product videos that I’ve been involved in and we’ve been doing a bit of personal branding for a couple of clients that just want to build their personal brand online. Because of the services that they sell is consultant and such. So busy, I don’t mind. I don’t have a, I can’t do that nine to five thing that we keep talking about. And I’ve heard that book about working seven hours a week. And the rest of it you don’t have to. Or seven days a week whatever it’s something I can’t do that and think my clock doesn’t stop until midnight.
Karl: [00:44:55] I understand. Where can folks find and follow what we do online?
Rico: [00:45:01] Sure. They can find Capital, well, if you search Google Capitalist Sage podcast, you will find us. We’re on iTunes, Iheart, Spotify, SoundCloud YouTube. ITunes, obviously, leave a review there if you do listen to it there. You can go to LivingInPeachtreeCorners.com and you’ll see playlists on the homepage of the latest episodes that we’ve done.
Karl: [00:45:23] Absolutely. And also on Facebook, Peachtree Corners Life. You can go follow us on there. Everytime we post a new episode it will come up in your feed so you can check in there. And you can follow us on any of those others so you’ll be alerted when there’s a new episode and makes it really easy to share with friends and other folks.
Rico: [00:45:43] You can watch the video on Facebook or on YouTube or listen to the podcast.
Karl: [00:45:48] Absolutely. Well, thank you everybody. Really it’s been a pleasure to continue to share these episodes with folks. So stay tuned for our next episode. Alright, have a great day.
Hargray Fiber Partners with Curiosity Lab at Peachtree Corners to Provide Critical Fiber Connectivity and Infrastructure
Curiosity Lab at Peachtree Corners announced its strategic partnership with Hargray to provide critical infrastructure for its Lab and the innovators that use it each and every day. Curiosity Lab is a 5G-enabled autonomous vehicle and smart city living laboratory located in Peachtree Corners, Ga., a northern suburb of Atlanta.
Since its inception 70 years ago, Hargray has grown from a local telephone company to an industry telecommunications leader, offering a wide variety of internet, TV and phone services throughout the southeast. Hargray Fiber, based in Savannah, GA, operates more than 2,000 route-mile fiber network in cities throughout the southeastern United States. Recognizing Curiosity Lab’s commitment to the advancement of smart city technology, Hargray partnered with the Lab to supply it with fiber connectivity. Throughout Curiosity Lab, Hargray’s fiber optic cable will serve as the key infrastructure backbone, with all services using or connected to the Lab’s network benefiting from Hargray’s efficient, seamless transfer of data.
Hargray Fiber will continue its expansion in the Peachtree Corners market by bringing its full suite of communication products including enhanced data, voice and video services including Hosted Unified Communications, Metro-Ethernet, multi-gigabit symmetrical circuits and video services all delivered exclusively over Hargray’s 100% fiber-optic network.
“Curiosity Lab at Peachtree Corners is a one-of-a-kind location for innovative smart city, wireless and autonomous vehicle companies to test and demo their technology,” said Chris McCorkendale, Senior Vice President, for Hargray Fiber. “Our partnership with Curiosity Lab will help these companies advance their technology and bring to market a broader and more robust suite of communication services to market.”
“As Hargray Fiber continues to expand its southeastern presence, we’re excited to offer leading fiber services to Lab users,” said Betsy Plattenburg, executive director of Curiosity Lab at Peachtree Corners. “With Hargray’s Fiber support, companies moving to Peachtree Corners and operating in the Lab will benefit from quick, easy connectivity.”
MY SALON Suite Celebrates Official Grand Opening of at Town Center
MY SALON Suite in Peachtree Corners celebrated its grand opening on Oct. 21 at its new location at Town Center. Peachtree Corners Mayor Mike Mason was on hand to perform the ribbon cutting, and residents were invited to tour the salon and enjoy refreshments.
A wide range of beauty and personal care services are available at MY SALON Suite, including hair, make-up, skin care, microblading, eyelash extensions and massage therapy. MY SALON Suite provides expansive private salon suites, luxurious décor, elite furnishings and custom amenities to member professionals, who operate their salon businesses independently.
To learn more, visit mysalonsuite.com/peachtree-corners.
Below are grand opening pictures including individual grand openings within MY SALON Suite.
Photography by Remi DeLong
Exercise Groups in Peachtree Corners—Fitness & Friendships for The Win!
Holiday Tree Lighting on Town Green, Dec. 6
YMCA Honors Peachtree Corners Resident with New Playground
Walk Through Bethlehem Showcases Christmas Spirit
“Coney Island: Visions Of An American Dreamland” Exhibit Opens At Gwinnett Environmental And Heritage Center
“Coney Island: Visions Of An American Dreamland” Exhibit Opens At Gwinnett Environmental And Heritage Center
YMCA Honors Peachtree Corners Resident with New Playground
Walk Through Bethlehem Showcases Christmas Spirit
Exercise Groups in Peachtree Corners—Fitness & Friendships for The Win!
Holiday Tree Lighting on Town Green, Dec. 6
My Favorite Holiday Foods & Desserts
Paul Duke STEM High School Teacher Beckie Fischer talks about her NASA Experience
Smart City Expo World Congress Wrapup, Nuisance Ordinance, Pedestrian Bridge and Lidl
Capitalist Sage: Business Leadership in Your Community [Podcast]
Cliff Bramble: A Culinary Adventure through Italy
Top 10 Brunch Places in Gwinnett County
A Hunger for Hospitality
THE CORNERS EPISODE 3 – BLAXICAN PART 1
Top 10 Indoor Things To Do This Winter
The ED Hour: What it takes to Remove Barriers from Education
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- “Coney Island: Visions Of An American Dreamland” Exhibit Opens At Gwinnett Environmental And Heritage Center
- YMCA Honors Peachtree Corners Resident with New Playground
- Walk Through Bethlehem Showcases Christmas Spirit
- Exercise Groups in Peachtree Corners—Fitness & Friendships for The Win!
- Holiday Tree Lighting on Town Green, Dec. 6